Under $100 Engine Torque Brace
12-12-2002, 05:05 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 127
This is a re-post (with some edits) of the writeup I gave on a competing forum. There are few changes. Here then is a copy of that earlier post:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is a not so quick write up on my experience with the purchase and installation of the under $100.00 engine torque brace.
I originally became interested in getting an ETB because I was getting what I refer to a “phantom knock spikes”. One of the forum members had a similar experience and cured his by installing an ETB. After looking at what was available currently and what was to be produced soon, I decided that the “phantom spikes did not warrant a $200.00 or so (including shipping) expenditure, but I was still interested in what the ETB promised to do generally. Sunday I spent a number of hours with the designer/fabricator as he built and installed one of his creations. I am now the owner of one of David’s ETBs. Although it did NOT cure my phantom spikes, the engineering, construction and handling results made this purchase well worth the money.
1. The engineering: David designed this brace as a option to the higher cost units and for use in his own, gorgeous and well engineered 3rd gen. Remember that he is no newcomer to high performance motor vehicles. Since the 70's David has been well known for designing and building everything from high performance turbocharged motorcycles to concept cars and has been around rotaries for many years. Although he would have preferred to (and may still) develop a torque brace that attaches to the transmission, he believed that the top mounted ETB would be an acceptable substitute. He was unimpressed with the pre-loading argument and suggests that the ajustability of the commercially available braces is for fittment purposes and serves no real purpose other than that. He suggests that preloading is a concept that attepts to use a torque brace to correct problems better solved with new or upgraded motor mounts. David bellieved that another problem with the commercially available torque braces were that the mounts were inadequate. By increasing the size of the fender mount and securing it with 6 bolts, David’s ETB better distributes the torsion, compression and tension forces over a wider area, reducing the likelihood of fatigue. David also felt that the engine hoist mount was inappropriately weak and its bolts were inadequate to effectively handle the compression and so he designed and manufactured a significantly stronger mount and installed it with stronger bolts. It is this level of attention to detail that impresses me. Finally the steel cross member is custom fit to each individual car and the “eye” ends are first threaded onto a threaded steel rod and then braised into place. David to adds custom cut neoprene bushings to the “eyes” and then pushes a steel guide tube through the center hole of the eye bushing. It is this setup that allows the unit to absorb the rattles and clunks that a solid ETB would necessarily create. (This is not just conjecture, David’s first bar rattled his teeth and so he redesigned the attachments to solve the problem). Finally, the crossmember is attached to the threaded mounts by stainless steel hexhead bolts and, if you desire, will be further secured by retaining nuts (a no-cost option I declined as pure overkill). You should be perfectly clear on this fact, the crossbar will never, short of an impact accident, ever get anywhere near enough to the ABS unit to cause you any grief or concern.
2. The Aesthetics. No it does not come painted or chromed, powder coated or polished. I understand that David is looking into making some options available in this area. I suggest primering all parts until you decide what you intend to do. I should note here that the silver powder coated example on David's own car is absolutely beautiful.
3. Installation. The installation is very straightforward and David is even providing the loan of special tools (a 90 degree drill attachment, a proper sized drill bit, a drill guide to keep the holes straight) and all bolts and other hardware necessary. The is no particular clearance problems around the ABS unit and David installed my ETB using both a standard 3/8" drill and an air tool with no clearancing problems from either. The replacement of the engine hoist mount is a simple R&R with the supplied new bolts. All mounting brackets and harware are supplied with the unit.
4. Quality. From what I saw ( and I saw everything in its raw form)---- the quality is nothing but the best, including “stainless” where required or suggested. The braising was professional and all edges were properly deburred.
5. Results- Right from the get go, I could tell that this unit really tightened up my engine to transmission connection. Previously some folks have said that $15 of shifter bushings will accomplish the same thing as an ETB—it will not. They are completely different problems and need to be addressed differently. Sloppy shifter bushings will make your shift pattern sloppy between the gates, engine torquing move the entire transmission around resulting in clunky sounds between shifts as well as noticeable movement in the entire shift lever. Although I had next to no slop in my transmission, the ETB install cleaned up the little bit remaining without adding ANY vibration or noise. The ETB stiffened it up right away and yet I can actually feel that there is sufficient give from the neoprene bushings to keep the stiffness from damaging other parts (including the UIM as suggested by another post).
6. Problems. I have no problem with the unit—especially for the price. Installation is not simply bolt on, nor does David suggest that it is. In fact David provides all the tools and the hardware necessary for a perfect job. An average mechanic with access to a few hand tools and a power drill should have no problem with this setup.
7. Impressions (NEW)- Love at first drive- Since I have had the unit installed for a few days now I have noticed something new and startling. There is a phenomenon called torque steer in FWD vehicles that is not around in RWDs. That said and remembering that I have a car that has excellent stock suspension and nearly new stock motor mounts, I have noticed that when accelerating past the apex of a tight righthander, there is a clearly tight line held by the steering that is completely independent of the amount of throttle applied. Prior to the installation of the torque brace I noted that the front right would dip into the curve more as more acceleration was applied. I assumed that was the result of the engine torque being applied to the lower right side of the frame causing the forces to be downward and inward. Since the addition of the ETB this phenomenon is not apparent. Whether this torque phenomenon really existed or if it was just a fantasy, I can't say. What I can say is that since the ETB I stopped the hallucinations and the car seems much more solid in those tight acceleration righthanders. Of course, if this is true, I am going to have to relearn drift points, but also if it is true, I will not have to worry about future changes in the inward accelerative steering geometry due to normal wear on the parts.
If you have any questions you can email me at jfeltman@altavista.net and I will answer to the best of my knowledge
Cheers
Jeff
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is a not so quick write up on my experience with the purchase and installation of the under $100.00 engine torque brace.
I originally became interested in getting an ETB because I was getting what I refer to a “phantom knock spikes”. One of the forum members had a similar experience and cured his by installing an ETB. After looking at what was available currently and what was to be produced soon, I decided that the “phantom spikes did not warrant a $200.00 or so (including shipping) expenditure, but I was still interested in what the ETB promised to do generally. Sunday I spent a number of hours with the designer/fabricator as he built and installed one of his creations. I am now the owner of one of David’s ETBs. Although it did NOT cure my phantom spikes, the engineering, construction and handling results made this purchase well worth the money.
1. The engineering: David designed this brace as a option to the higher cost units and for use in his own, gorgeous and well engineered 3rd gen. Remember that he is no newcomer to high performance motor vehicles. Since the 70's David has been well known for designing and building everything from high performance turbocharged motorcycles to concept cars and has been around rotaries for many years. Although he would have preferred to (and may still) develop a torque brace that attaches to the transmission, he believed that the top mounted ETB would be an acceptable substitute. He was unimpressed with the pre-loading argument and suggests that the ajustability of the commercially available braces is for fittment purposes and serves no real purpose other than that. He suggests that preloading is a concept that attepts to use a torque brace to correct problems better solved with new or upgraded motor mounts. David bellieved that another problem with the commercially available torque braces were that the mounts were inadequate. By increasing the size of the fender mount and securing it with 6 bolts, David’s ETB better distributes the torsion, compression and tension forces over a wider area, reducing the likelihood of fatigue. David also felt that the engine hoist mount was inappropriately weak and its bolts were inadequate to effectively handle the compression and so he designed and manufactured a significantly stronger mount and installed it with stronger bolts. It is this level of attention to detail that impresses me. Finally the steel cross member is custom fit to each individual car and the “eye” ends are first threaded onto a threaded steel rod and then braised into place. David to adds custom cut neoprene bushings to the “eyes” and then pushes a steel guide tube through the center hole of the eye bushing. It is this setup that allows the unit to absorb the rattles and clunks that a solid ETB would necessarily create. (This is not just conjecture, David’s first bar rattled his teeth and so he redesigned the attachments to solve the problem). Finally, the crossmember is attached to the threaded mounts by stainless steel hexhead bolts and, if you desire, will be further secured by retaining nuts (a no-cost option I declined as pure overkill). You should be perfectly clear on this fact, the crossbar will never, short of an impact accident, ever get anywhere near enough to the ABS unit to cause you any grief or concern.
2. The Aesthetics. No it does not come painted or chromed, powder coated or polished. I understand that David is looking into making some options available in this area. I suggest primering all parts until you decide what you intend to do. I should note here that the silver powder coated example on David's own car is absolutely beautiful.
3. Installation. The installation is very straightforward and David is even providing the loan of special tools (a 90 degree drill attachment, a proper sized drill bit, a drill guide to keep the holes straight) and all bolts and other hardware necessary. The is no particular clearance problems around the ABS unit and David installed my ETB using both a standard 3/8" drill and an air tool with no clearancing problems from either. The replacement of the engine hoist mount is a simple R&R with the supplied new bolts. All mounting brackets and harware are supplied with the unit.
4. Quality. From what I saw ( and I saw everything in its raw form)---- the quality is nothing but the best, including “stainless” where required or suggested. The braising was professional and all edges were properly deburred.
5. Results- Right from the get go, I could tell that this unit really tightened up my engine to transmission connection. Previously some folks have said that $15 of shifter bushings will accomplish the same thing as an ETB—it will not. They are completely different problems and need to be addressed differently. Sloppy shifter bushings will make your shift pattern sloppy between the gates, engine torquing move the entire transmission around resulting in clunky sounds between shifts as well as noticeable movement in the entire shift lever. Although I had next to no slop in my transmission, the ETB install cleaned up the little bit remaining without adding ANY vibration or noise. The ETB stiffened it up right away and yet I can actually feel that there is sufficient give from the neoprene bushings to keep the stiffness from damaging other parts (including the UIM as suggested by another post).
6. Problems. I have no problem with the unit—especially for the price. Installation is not simply bolt on, nor does David suggest that it is. In fact David provides all the tools and the hardware necessary for a perfect job. An average mechanic with access to a few hand tools and a power drill should have no problem with this setup.
7. Impressions (NEW)- Love at first drive- Since I have had the unit installed for a few days now I have noticed something new and startling. There is a phenomenon called torque steer in FWD vehicles that is not around in RWDs. That said and remembering that I have a car that has excellent stock suspension and nearly new stock motor mounts, I have noticed that when accelerating past the apex of a tight righthander, there is a clearly tight line held by the steering that is completely independent of the amount of throttle applied. Prior to the installation of the torque brace I noted that the front right would dip into the curve more as more acceleration was applied. I assumed that was the result of the engine torque being applied to the lower right side of the frame causing the forces to be downward and inward. Since the addition of the ETB this phenomenon is not apparent. Whether this torque phenomenon really existed or if it was just a fantasy, I can't say. What I can say is that since the ETB I stopped the hallucinations and the car seems much more solid in those tight acceleration righthanders. Of course, if this is true, I am going to have to relearn drift points, but also if it is true, I will not have to worry about future changes in the inward accelerative steering geometry due to normal wear on the parts.
If you have any questions you can email me at jfeltman@altavista.net and I will answer to the best of my knowledge
Cheers
Jeff
12-12-2002, 07:08 AM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 127
Pengaru
There is no shame in plugging superior products. In fact I thought that was one of the purposes for having a forum. . . letting RX7 owners know about inferior and superior products, services, and procedures.
FYI I purchased this unit from David at full price and he had no idea if or what I would post as a review. I posted this review because I honestly believe that for less than half the price of the commercially available units, David supplies a comparable if not superior product. If his price makes the units available to more people, don't you think the people considering the unit deserve an accurate description?
Thank you for your spelling lesson, I apparently needed it
. . . although I had no need for the definition---that much I had right .
BTW where in Illinois are you? I am in Carbondale and I am always up for a road trip to BS with other 7 owners.
Jeff
There is no shame in plugging superior products. In fact I thought that was one of the purposes for having a forum. . . letting RX7 owners know about inferior and superior products, services, and procedures.
FYI I purchased this unit from David at full price and he had no idea if or what I would post as a review. I posted this review because I honestly believe that for less than half the price of the commercially available units, David supplies a comparable if not superior product. If his price makes the units available to more people, don't you think the people considering the unit deserve an accurate description?
Thank you for your spelling lesson, I apparently needed it
BTW where in Illinois are you? I am in Carbondale and I am always up for a road trip to BS with other 7 owners.
Jeff
12-12-2002, 07:23 AM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: IL
Posts: 2,930
Originally Posted by jeff48920' date='Dec 12 2002, 01:08 PM
Pengaru
There is no shame in plugging superior products. In fact I thought that was one of the purposes for having a forum. . . letting RX7 owners know about inferior and superior products, services, and procedures.
FYI I purchased this unit from David at full price and he had no idea if or what I would post as a review. I posted this review because I honestly believe that for less than half the price of the commercially available units, David supplies a comparable if not superior product. If his price makes the units available to more people, don't you think the people considering the unit deserve an accurate description?
Thank you for your spelling lesson, I apparently needed it . . . although I had no need for the definition---that much I had right .
BTW where in Illinois are you? I am in Carbondale and I am always up for a road trip to BS with other 7 owners.
Jeff
There is no shame in plugging superior products. In fact I thought that was one of the purposes for having a forum. . . letting RX7 owners know about inferior and superior products, services, and procedures.
FYI I purchased this unit from David at full price and he had no idea if or what I would post as a review. I posted this review because I honestly believe that for less than half the price of the commercially available units, David supplies a comparable if not superior product. If his price makes the units available to more people, don't you think the people considering the unit deserve an accurate description?
Thank you for your spelling lesson, I apparently needed it
BTW where in Illinois are you? I am in Carbondale and I am always up for a road trip to BS with other 7 owners.
Jeff
I have no idea who david is, where I would find his products, or what your other posts are about... this 'review' was really strange to read, throughout the whole thing I felt like I had missed a memo and felt a need to throw some fish guts on my TPS reports.
12-12-2002, 07:32 AM
#5
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 127
Well you see that if I were really a good advertising guy I would have said how to contact David, where he was, posted some picture etc.
No, you didn't miss a memo, this was just a review of a product and those who are looking for information on ETBs would understand fully. No slam intended here, three weeks ago I would have had no idea what an ETB was or why I wanted one.
Please do not throw any fish products on your TPS reports it makes them tough to review.
Finally Naperville isn't too far away for a 7 driver.
No, you didn't miss a memo, this was just a review of a product and those who are looking for information on ETBs would understand fully. No slam intended here, three weeks ago I would have had no idea what an ETB was or why I wanted one.
Please do not throw any fish products on your TPS reports it makes them tough to review.
Finally Naperville isn't too far away for a 7 driver.
12-12-2002, 09:50 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Frederick MD
Posts: 6,331
On the other forum I asked about loading the driver side mount. In the mess of chat going on I think I missed the answer.
I think you said you didn't load anthing. I was wondering if you could provide a little insight. I installed the rx7store brace. I put no load on it. Got a really good feel. Loaded the driver side mount. Not much of a difference, but tighter at idle.
CAN you load the brace you have? Is there really a need to? I hear both sides, but still don't really have any tech data to compare.
Pengaru, The fish guts on the TPS report had me on the ****** floor! Oh, and I'm in St. louis. We all need to get together.
I think you said you didn't load anthing. I was wondering if you could provide a little insight. I installed the rx7store brace. I put no load on it. Got a really good feel. Loaded the driver side mount. Not much of a difference, but tighter at idle.
CAN you load the brace you have? Is there really a need to? I hear both sides, but still don't really have any tech data to compare.
Pengaru, The fish guts on the TPS report had me on the ****** floor! Oh, and I'm in St. louis. We all need to get together.
12-12-2002, 10:22 AM
#7
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3
The designer of this brace and Crispy (the designer of the RX7store brace) agree that preloading is not the purpose of an adjustable brace and should not be used as a substitute for replacing worn out motor mounts. Crispy's design is user adjustable so as to be instantly adaptable to any car, anywhere any time. David's brace is not adjustable (it is custom made to the specs of your car).
As I understand it, the problem with preloading is that it puts an abnormal stress (opposite to normal torque direction) on the motor mounts and eliminates ALL torque induced movement. The general wisdom is that if you completely eliminate the movement you can cause the transmission and engine to be stressed beyond the design specs. While I don't know if this is true, it makes a certain amount of sense.
BTW Crispy told me in a response that was flushed when the other system crashed that his non-preloaded ETB has been installed for over 3 years without any bad effects. He also told me that he has heard of no ETB caused damage on any car on which his designs have been installed.
Yeah
we ought to all get together
As I understand it, the problem with preloading is that it puts an abnormal stress (opposite to normal torque direction) on the motor mounts and eliminates ALL torque induced movement. The general wisdom is that if you completely eliminate the movement you can cause the transmission and engine to be stressed beyond the design specs. While I don't know if this is true, it makes a certain amount of sense.
BTW Crispy told me in a response that was flushed when the other system crashed that his non-preloaded ETB has been installed for over 3 years without any bad effects. He also told me that he has heard of no ETB caused damage on any car on which his designs have been installed.
Yeah
we ought to all get together
01-02-2003, 04:54 PM
#9
Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 65
Jeff48 - Here is the brace installed on my FD.
I am more than pleased with mine as well.
I am not even certain I can add much more to your description but from personal experience I wanted to include my absolute thumbs up.
It is quiet, the car is tighter and shifts are so much more crisp. Can't say much more as I am still smiling.
K
I am more than pleased with mine as well.
I am not even certain I can add much more to your description but from personal experience I wanted to include my absolute thumbs up.
It is quiet, the car is tighter and shifts are so much more crisp. Can't say much more as I am still smiling.
K
01-02-2003, 05:21 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wayne, NJ
Posts: 4,837
on the "other" forum there is a "ghetto mod" which is making an ETB which i believe he said cost $30.04 and it actually looks rather professional/fancy. Might want to check that out if anyone is checking this topic.
kevin.
kevin.