I was considering converting my car to E85 as it supposidly has a higher octane rating than 93. but I wanted to know what all is involved and what is true and untrue. I know about the poor fuel economy but I want to know if the rumors are true of it eating aluminum an all that crap also do I need a special o2 sensor to read for it. any VERIFIABLE information is appreciated.

Far as I know, Not much.. just need to tune your car for it. which means you need aftermarket ECU, Dyno, wideband, etc.



But why?? E85 isn't available everywhere nor its that much cheaper to actually tune your car for it.. I say it will cost you about 1k to tune it.

Im happy with an E85 switch, im in iowa and almost 60% of gas stations here have pumps that offer e85 so it would be feasable for me to do it, however if i drive out of town whats the chances of me finding a station that has e85?? so untill its more widespead i think ill be holding off on setting up my car for it :-( its a shame too I heard its octane rating is better than 93 also..

60% of gas stations in Iowa has E85?? So, in state of Iowa there is only 120 or so gas stations??



Because I see that there is only 70 E85 gas stations in state of Iowa.



http://e85vehicles.com/e85-iowa.htm

i think running it would be good, but ide be ready to replace o rings and rubber stuff

the reaon that I thought about switching is that where I live in oklahoma there is a station that sells E85 really close to my home and suppposidly it has a much higher octane rating like above 101 is what I have been told. also I have no Idea if it is as corrosive as methanol or not so about replacing rubber stuff who knows. As far as its availablity in Iowa it seems like there are a million stations that sell it every time I visit family there, it is every where. I guess this isn't a huge shock considering alot of the states income is from it crops namely corn and soy. also have any of you dallas guys seen it for sale around your area?

ok ya got me, ill rephrase and say 60% of where I live at in Iowa have it.. these numbers arnt in stone! but all the ones i stop at advertise having it.



Herb, I think that list dont have them all listed. I live in Davenport and it isnt even listed on that list and I can give you the names of about 10 gas stations in davenport that carry E85.

E85 - 83k btu/gal

Gasolene - 114k btu/gal

So roughly you can drive only 75% as far on the same ammount of E85

Octane roughly 100-105





I know two people who do E85. With premix it smells like popcorn https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR



One is a carbed FB and one is a haltech E11 FC.



Nothing was changed on either other than maps and jets.



I thought about doing it but if you look at prices for how far you drive the only reason to switch would be octane. Now, considering its only 100-105 I really dont see all that much gain for the effort involved.



Do the math on prices in your area(dont forget to include airplane gas) and you will see its pretty much the same price as gasolene. But again when it comes to octane thats relative.....

Forgot to add this





I did a science experiment when I was a wee lad with pure ethanol. Soaked different engine parts in it and gasolene at the same time. Only thing that casued problems was rusted metal and a few different kinds of O rings. The problem with the rust is that if it was your gas tank youd end up with cloged system. Ethanol seems to want to clean out your gas tank and lines where gas just sorta hangs out. You can just imagine what can happen with o rings on a rotary. But like I said, I soaked them for over a month and they did not change that much.



I was never able to identify what the effected O rings were made of.

LOL! i just quoted from my finding.. I have no clue how many stations that sell them in Iowa.. It just seemed quite high when you stated 60%... as I have seen 0 in AL.





Also, if i recall... ethanol have different burning properties. I think it burns slower so you would have to change the timing on your engine to make optimal efficiency. Hence when you run race fuel you would need a retune.. as just running race fuel doesn't mean you will make more power with same setting as 91 octane... Just mean you might be little more aggressive on timing to make more power...



I also agree about maybe damaging the rubber related parts.. But I don't know what extend EtOH will affect the engine and its gaskets and such. Overall, it might be a good idea but since I don't daily my car, I have no intention of converting... Also there are pro drag racers use 100% EtOH as its "safer". Some of them run turbo minus IC and just dump EtOH in the engine.. or was it Methanol.. I don't remember..

Check this thread..



http://e85vehicles.com/e85-texas.htm



Also, good post! Something interesting to talk about!



Oh, also this link to find the nearest alternative fuel stations...



http://afdcmap2.nrel.gov/locator/FindPane.asp



I searched for E85 in Alabama and there are "3" stations.. 1 near me is only for the government and 2 are too far away and not yet opened.. LOL!



IA, only shows 64 stations..

hmm I dunno then man. I know im right in the corn belt and there opening a ethanol plant in buffalo which is like 5 to 10 miles from where i live and its supposed to be supporting e85 and in iowa alone they are in the process of building i think it was 15 or 16 other plants just like it that will support the e85 swap. Iowa is nothing but corn let me tell you..



It makes me think wether we like it or not were eventually going to have to swith to run e85 lol maybe not in the next few years but maybe next 10 years it will be the common fuel??

okay well as of right now I have a rotary performance fuel pump, fuel lab regulator and aluminum fuel rail from rp with 850cc primaries and 1600cc secondaries along with a power fc with data-logit. NGK plugs and wires along with a second gen leading coil and a jacobs fc 1000. I think that should handle my needs but I really have no idea about the issue of it possibly eating up aluminum or God forbid the brass connectors and fuel hose if anyone learns that this could be a bad match please let me know.

On a boosted vehicle alcohol cools the air charge considerably as it vapourizes. This is why alcohol cars often don't use an intercooler, not just because of the higher octane.



You hear stories of alcohol cars actually forming condensation and even frost on the intake manifold on the dyno, though I haven't actually seen this myself.

Damn if the cooling affects are that drastic than I definetly shouldn't have done that coolant bypass to my throttle body.



I found this information on a government site and I thought it was somewhat informative.



http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/ruling...ailability1.htm



Ethanol: Ethanol (C2H5OH) is a liquid alcohol fuel (sometimes referred to as grain alcohol) currently made from corn. Like methanol, ethanol can be used to make a gasoline additive (ETBE), and is used in an 85 percent blend with gasoline to power flexible-fuel vehicles. Currently, the primary use of ethanol is as a gasoline blending component in gasohol, reformulated gas, and in wintertime oxygenated fuels.

Changes to ethanol flexible-fuel vehicles relative to gasoline vehicles consist mostly of a sensor which will detect the type of fuel being pumped to the engine, and sets of engine maps to ensure that the vehicle operates on ethanol in a manner consistent with its operation on gasoline. Additionally, since higher flow-rate fuel injectors are used to accommodate the lower energy density of ethanol relative to gasoline, software changes relative to injector control (injector duration, etc.) may be necessary to ensure proper operation of the fuel injection system.

Ethanol is corrosive to some metals, although less so than methanol. Metals recommended for use with ethanol include carbon steel, stainless steel, and aluminum (if suitably protected from corrosion). Ethanol is less prone to attack elastomeric materials, so many common elastomers can be used with ethanol without risk of deterioration. No special manufacturing techniques are needed for ethanol fuel systems for flexible-fuel vehicles.

It doesn't affect your TB at all as EtOH will be flowed thru your injectors not your intake. Unless you want to add injectors on your elbow?? but still need primary and secondary.



What tyson was mention is your LIM. I personally can't see it frost or condense. Just as Tyson stated, EtOH vaporizes better than gas, hence it shouldn't condense as well as gas either.. And Frost, well, I use EtOH in my research and I could tell you that EtOH has a very very low freezing point. For EtOH to freeze, it has to be pretty damn cold. Hence why gas companies use EtOH in their gas during winter time.



I personally don't think it will damage anything on your car.. Maybe LIM.. But who cares! If it does, you wouldn't see the difference for years!

Rotor housings, well they are coated and it goes thru more abuse thru Apex seals than EtOH. If the EtOH seeps thru and possibly damaging your viton seals (which I don't think it will damage it) or coolant seals (also, I don't think EtOH will damage it). Only thing I could think of would be the injector seals but you have to understand, during winter, normal gas we buy have EtOH added to help from freezing.. And normal rubber (which EtOH will dry it out) the petrol will eat it up! Most of the car related especially internal O rings and such are resistant to Oil and EtOH..



So, if you really want to go E85, like I said, I think all you need is a good tune! But thats my opinion.. I guess if I had E85 stations around me, I wouldn't mind giving it a shot! Give it a try and see.. And tell us how everything goes.

If my understanding of Ethanol is correct, you might be able to run higher boost as exhaust temp is lower hence turbos will run cooler, hence intake charge is cooler, hence could go more aggressive timing, which all equates to more power at the end.. Someone correct me if my understanding of Ethanol is correct or wrong.

1600cc injectors are specifically made for alcohol. They come from Ford flex fuel vehicles (ie E85)



The condensation on the outside of the intake manifold would be from moisture in the air, not the alcohol itself.

I see, so you're saying its cooling the manifold cooler than outside temp? It has to be damn warm and humid outside to make it that cold. I guess anything could be possible..

This is a great topic! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683561.gif makes ya think real hard. I work at John Deere and im headin to a different plant today and some people there are chemical engineers so I can bring this stuff up to them and see what they say on e85 and the cooling and so fourth.



they may not know but then again they may know since they are on the alternate fuels department lol which is why i have to go there cause i keep popping O2 sensors with there new stuff so I have to run some tests...



so they should but I think its work a shot to at least ask.

well if I learn that there is nothing corrosive about it to my gaskets, o-rings and fuel system then I will probably try it. what was posted about the 1600cc injectors coming from Ford's fuel flexible program I have heard that before and I believe it is most likely true but do you have any sitings for that I wanted to do more research on it and I also wanted to find out if my 850cc primaries are also fuel flexable.

This is another reason why you shouldn't worry too much about EtOH exposure to O rings and gaskets in the short block. First the engine combustion will experience pretty high heat where any EtOH should be burned off. Second, if the EtOH should happen to seep thru and make contact with O rings and such, then I think you already had issues with your engine prior to running E85.



I personally think you don't need to worry about it except maybe affecting the injectors or some rubber fuel lines (I also don't think that would be a problem). I just can't think of anything that would be harm the car by running E85...



Another benefit I see is that you will have less carb build up using E85... Which I think its a big plus!

Those 1600s are also used for straight methanol

ive been thinking of using an additional fuel cell for e85

also a gas station over in council bluffs iowa by lake manawah is selling e85 for 1.70 ish a gallon where premium is about 2.45



gas for thought

ha I just drove through council bluffs lol.. i was on my way back from cedar rapids

I found some 3/8 and 1/2 methanol fuel lines for 6.99-9.99 per foot from a local guy around here who is running his methanol fueled supercharged big block chevy with mechanical fuel injection. so fuel lines are taken care of, now to determine wether I need a new fuel rail, regulator, pump and God forbid a new tank.

I'm confused.. again... did you read any of the posts above?? Why are you changing out fuel lines, rail, regulator, pump, and... tank??



I would really like to hear your reasons.

I never said I was going to change them all out. If there was any confusion what I meant was that I will change my fuel lines ( nothing else yet ). Also I'm just adding information about fuel lines that would be able to handle more corrosive properties than what ethanol dishes out. I heard from a local shop that I may need larger lines as you run a considerably larger amount of fuel when you use ethanol compared to gasoline. So if I'm using the stock lines they may bottle neck the fuel system.

OK.. I'm not sure what kind of power you are trying to make but I know people using stock lines with good ole gasoline making 500+HP.

So, just how much is "considerably larger amount"? When someone tells me considerable amount, I normally think of 50+% more. If its that much more, I also wonder about the cost effectiveness of this conversion (E85 might be about the same cost as 93 OCT).

well I dont know what he meant by "considerably" more fuel I want to try and make around 450+whp if possible. I'm a firm believer in overkill especially when it comes to fuel and if I ever get the money to go with a 20b then I bet I could use larger lines so the way that I see it this is a safe guard and an investment for the future.

9.8-1 is stoic for E-85. You need LOTS more fuel than gasoline.



You need much larger injectors, lines, and a fuel pump that can handle conductive liquids. Gasoline is dielectric, e-85 is not.

are you saying that i need much larger injectors than stock or the 850cc and 1600cc that I have?

If you needed all of 4900cc worth of injector to support whatever power you had on gasoline, you will need much more to support the same power on e-85.



Someone earlier posted the 1600s originaly came from FFVs. Thats not cause FFVs make huge power, its cause the fuel they may use usually wont have the same ideal AFRs as gasoline, requiring more fuel.

I'm not an expert in alcohol tuning but little I know, those run Ethanol could run higher boost and timing etc as its less prone to pre ignition etc as it runs cooler..



So in my theory, I think you could run higher boost to compensate for increase power per volume used. Does this make sense?? If you go by the same tune for gasoline, yes, I agree, you would use much much higher volume of E85 vs gasoline. Also if you kept at at same boost..

Do you mean raise boost to compensate for more volume of fuel needed per horsepower? If so, no.



Under ANY tune, you will consume more E-85 than gasoline to achieve the same power.

Can you explain to me why?

Because E-85 does not have the same thermal energy of gasoline per weight. Requiring more of it to equal the power of gasoline. Hence E-85s 9.8-1 stoichiometric.



Raising boost raises the air to fuel ratio making you run leaner. You dont know this?

Well, Let me ask you this.. higher octane gas or race gas, why is that you could make more power? I think the concept of running higher octane, boost, and timing goes hand in hand.. hence my suggestion was that higher boost, advance in timing will and could come close to power level of using gasoline with E85. Like I said, I have zero experience using E85 and this is just a speculation.



And yes, I do know raising boost = leaner.. But you do know that E85's higher octane, cooler burn means more play in timing. On contray to some people's belief, power just don't come from just air fuel.

i have to agree!!

okay so in a nut shell we have decided that e85 requires a richer a/f mixture so yea gas mileage will suck even more than it already does with a rotary but the increase octane level will allow for more boost and more advanced timing as herb stated so we can agree that....





Pros: more power, and better for the enviroment



cons: shitty gas mileage, and its not readily available



Am I right? ( or maybe im just too drunk at the moment )

Correct.



The best we can hope for is a variety of percentages (E-45, E-55, E-65) to give more mileage per tank. And still have some benefits of ethanol.