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APEX is releasing a new suspension kit for the 93+ RX-7.
32 way adjustable 12 kg/cm springs in the front and back The N1 ExV Damper is the newest edition to Apex's high performance street line of coilover suspension. The Expert Type V (ExV) is a full coilover suspension featuring a threaded base for precise ride height adjustment without compromising shock or spring travel. Apex have taken their street suspension to the next level by including high performance upper mounts and 32 way ride quality adjustment for street cars that are used at the track as well. The spring rates and internal valving of the ExV has been completely refined for excellent ride quality and sports driving. The ExV was designed to cater exclusively to U.S. market vehicles. With this in mind, internal components have been specifically engineered to withstand harsher road conditions and increased wear caused by everyday street driveing. The Expert Type V was developed based upon user requests for a high performance damper that doesn't carry a typical racing suspension price tag. This system stands as their commitment in providing customers with the ultimate in quality and affordability. This suspension has a list price of $1390. Street Price is about $1100. If there are enough people interested, I can do a group by on them. 1-4 buyers: $975 4-8 buyers: $945 9+ buyers: $890! Please post here if you are interested. I will have photos of the suspension next week. Chuck |
Damn that sucks....now that i'm on a budget i cant, but i want to so bad.
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. i'll get back on this |
Originally Posted by blaze08' date='Feb 23 2005, 09:14 AM
Damn that sucks....now that i'm on a budget i cant, but i want to so bad.
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. i'll get back on this |
hmmm, no one else is interested? They are better than the Tein flex because they are the mono-tube design and also cheaper. I don't know why no one wants them. I have 5 sets coming in. I don't want to be stuck with them forever. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...O_DIR#>/11.gif
Chuck |
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme' date='Feb 24 2005, 10:03 PM
hmmm, no one else is interested? They are better than the Tein flex because they are the mono-tube design and also cheaper. I don't know why no one wants them. I have 5 sets coming in. I don't want to be stuck with them forever. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...O_DIR#>/11.gif
Chuck If the group by gets into the cheaper brackets i would love to purchase a set. All depends on budgeting, and when it all happens. ~Sirrelix |
that is cheap you will sell alot of these i'm sure chuck. i've driven on N1 Pro coilovers and they RULE!
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i run and really like lots of Apexi products and i also run Chuck's toe links which are well built...
that said, being a closet suspension engineer and having road raced successfully for 22 seasons i want to make certain that potential buyers understand just what they are considering bolting on their car. i am sure being an Apexi product the quality is high. take a step back and consider what you are buying.... SPRINGS. so what is the RATE? first off, it is mis-stated as 12 KG/CM. i am sure it is 12 KG/mm. that's 672 pounds per inch. the maximum front spring i recommend is 560 and that's right on the line of being too much spring. secondly... if Chuck is correct, the front and rear springs are the same rate. not good on a front engine rear drive car. the stock Fd runs 263 front and 195 rear. the excellent Eibach Pro Kit springs are 350 front 255 rear my RS*R coil overs which i consider tops are 432 front and 378 rear the Tein Flex which i like are 566 front and 422 rear lots of guys running regular racing springs generally run 550/450 the reason you run softer in the rear is that the primary challenge as to going fast in a front engine rear drive car is making the rear stick. softer bias as to springs, shocks, sway bar and tire pressure ( 30 front 27-28 rear set cold) makes it happen. similar rated front and rear springs will just make the rear slide around. and 32 shock settings? i have a shock dyno and shock valving needs to relate to spring rate. plus or minus a modest amount. how do you say overkill. finally just a word on going fast.... too stiff is slow just as too soft is. there is a common misunderstanding that you have to endure a hard ride to have a fast car. not true. it might seem fast as the car tends to react more quickly to the steering input but when you get to a corner you will find that the car is much harder to drive at the limit. that's because stiffer suspensions do not transfer lateral load any less than softer suspensions. the same force is transferred only faster. faster gives less feedback. it is this feed back early warning that allows a driver to drive at the limit of adhesion. still don't think fast is soft? just watch a NASCAR restart. as the cars weave back and forth to warm their tires notice how much roll is in the chassis... lots. if our cars didn't have a true racecar suspension, which they do, then i could see stiffer springs to decrease body roll... but we have double A arms that deliver negative camber gain on bump so roll is not an issue. bottomline here is that unless you want to buy these coilovers for drifting... where the object is to slide, not go fast at the adhesion limit, find another nice coilover package from Chuck with the right spring rate. howard coleman |
Howard:
Yes, I misquoted the springs rates. They are 12 kg/mm, not 12 kg/cm. Most Japanese suspensions come with the same springs rates front and back. I asked them if they can do custom springs rates but they say they can't. You can buy the Eibach racing springs for about $50 each. So even if you want to change out the springs, it's still going to be pretty cheap compared to all the others on the market. Chuck |
chuck,
if you can switch springs that would be a real plus. 550/450 or 450/350 both would work very well w your coil over setup. my best, howard coleman |
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme' date='Feb 24 2005, 10:03 PM
They are better than the Tein flex because they are the mono-tube design and also cheaper.
Chuck "Mono tube"? What does that mean exactly. These look just like the flex Tein's only different color. I am quite sure the flex are also, Mono tube???? Do these come with adjustible pillow ball/camber plates like the flex? How about a picture? Not the tiny little one from the Apexi site but an actual picture of what they look like for an FD?? Thanks GregW |
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/...vs_anim_01.gif
The APEX EXV is monotube design which is the one on the left. With the monotube design, a larger piston can be used and the shock oil does not deteriorate as fast. All the high end suspensions have mono-tube design. Tein Flex is twin tube. Their high end ones like RA is monotube. It comes with upper mount. I have to see if it's pillow ball when I receive my shipment. There won't be any camber adjustment on it for sure. You can adjust camber stock already. Tein flex does not come with adjustable camber plates for the 3rd gen, either. Pictures will be posted once the shipment comes in. Chuck
Originally Posted by GMON' date='Feb 25 2005, 03:03 PM
"Mono tube"? What does that mean exactly. These look just like the flex Tein's only different color. I am quite sure the flex are also, Mono tube????
Do these come with adjustible pillow ball/camber plates like the flex? How about a picture? Not the tiny little one from the Apexi site but an actual picture of what they look like for an FD?? Thanks GregW |
I don't think I will swap the springs out. I will leave that to the buyers to decide.
For people who want want 550 lb/in and 450 lb/in combo, you can also consider the Buddy Club suspension. I asked Buddy Club to build my own custom spec of 10 kg/mm front and 8 kg/mm rear. I have those in stock too. They are on monthly special for $1295. 15 way adjustable, pillow ball upper mount, adjustable lower bracket just like the APEX EXV. Chuck
Originally Posted by howracer' date='Feb 25 2005, 01:25 PM
chuck,
if you can switch springs that would be a real plus. 550/450 or 450/350 both would work very well w your coil over setup. my best, howard coleman |
Originally Posted by howracer' date='Feb 25 2005, 09:39 AM
....if Chuck is correct, the front and rear springs are the same rate. not good on a front engine rear drive car. .....
....similar rated front and rear springs will just make the rear slide around..... |
If you cant adjust the camber and your not sure if its pillow ball, doesnt that make the teins better? it dosnt matter if the pistons bigger, just how fast the fluid moves. Get me some more info. im still leaning tward teins, but let me knwo how yours are and i might throw down
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme' date='Feb 25 2005, 06:36 PM
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/products/...vs_anim_01.gif
The APEX EXV is monotube design which is the one on the left. With the monotube design, a larger piston can be used and the shock oil does not deteriorate as fast. All the high end suspensions have mono-tube design. Tein Flex is twin tube. Their high end ones like RA is monotube. It comes with upper mount. I have to see if it's pillow ball when I receive my shipment. There won't be any camber adjustment on it for sure. You can adjust camber stock already. Tein flex does not come with adjustable camber plates for the 3rd gen, either. Pictures will be posted once the shipment comes in. Chuck |
just a few follow ups...
as to adding more roll stiffness in front to offset an overly stiff rear vs front relationship: w a spring rate of 670 you have too much roll stiffness to start with. adding more in front would/could actually balance the car but the car would be so stiff that it would pound over bumps, the tires would chatter over the pavement and it would have virtually no feel before breaking loose. if you want to get an idea of how your car would drive w 670 pound springs air your tires up to 75 psi and have at it. not pretty. as to camber adjustment. i guess i don't understand the comments. there is no camber adjustment on any upper mounts for the FD. Mcphereson strut suspended cars do adjust camber by moving the upper attachment plate laterally. the FD has double A arms and camber is adjusted my moving the lower A arm which is attached to the car by cams. it is the double A arm (racing design) that give the FD it's negative camber gain on bump. in other words as the outside wheel moves up into the wheel well on a turn and the body rolls the tire is pulled into additional negative camber so the most important wheel on the car in a turn stays properly negative. this is unlike any mcphereson strut car. while i am on the subject of the upper attachment point of the coil-over shock and spring there is another point to make. the entire corner weight of the car sits on the upper spring. Mazda wisely added an approx 3/8 inch rubber insulator between the car and the spring. pillowball upper mounts remove all the insulation. result: lots of vibration, noise etc. in addition compliance is reduced. some compliance is a good thing as it soaks up micro bumps in the pavement and keeps the tire on the ground instead of the air. i do not run pillow ball upper mounts and think they slightly decrease roadholding as well as greatly increase vibration... remember then entire cornerweight is sitting on this junction. i run the OEM rubber gasket front and rear. as to monotube versus twin tube... i own a shock dyno... it is a non issue performancewise unless you are in F1. my purpose is not to knock any product and i do have a high regard for apexi products but the most significant factor in choosing coil overs is the spring rate. unless you are drifting the rate is too high and needs to be softer in the rear. howard coleman |
i checked out Rotary Extreme's broad suspension product line and note that they offer the Tein lineup...
take a good look at the Tein Flex product.. 560/450 rate which is very close to the optimum rate for aggressive street and track. 16 adj also, Rotary Extreme sells Buddy coil overs. they rate at 558/447 which also sounds excellent. finally, w the super price on the Apexi Exv setup i would certainly look into finding a way to swap out the springs for something resembling the above rates. BTW, the FD needs two sets of bushings to be pitched in the trash barrel. one set is the large rubber bushing on the front of the lower (rear) longitudinal links. i run a nylon bushing w a steel insert but Chuck sells a really nice replacement with a high quality spherical bushing. all the braking and acceleration feed into this bushing and it needs serious help. since the cornerweight of the car does not sit on the bushing changing it will not up your NVH. howard coleman |
my old car i had gab coilovers pretty sure they were 8/6, turbovr6 now has them and they were VERY streetable, I LOVED THEM compared to my RB springs and tokico illumina's. the correct spring rate depends on the valving off the shocks also.........!
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Howard:
You just doubled the sum of information on suspension in the nopistons archive https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png |
You can't adjust the camber with the Tein suspension, either. Since the you can adjust camber stock, none of the aftermarket suspensions offers camber adjustment plate. They only offer those on the 2nd Gen RX-7, not 3rd Gen RX-7.
When I get the shipment in this Thursday, I will see if upper mount has pillow ball. Chuck
Originally Posted by CletusFD3S' date='Feb 25 2005, 08:49 PM
If you cant adjust the camber and your not sure if its pillow ball, doesnt that make the teins better? it dosnt matter if the pistons bigger, just how fast the fluid moves. Get me some more info. im still leaning tward teins, but let me knwo how yours are and i might throw down
|
Howard:
From my understanding, the monotube shocks cost more to manufacture than the twin tube ones. Most OEM shocks are twin tube design due to cheaper cost of manufacturing. If there is no difference, why do some companies offer the mono tube design? All HKS suspensions are monotube design. For Tein, their cheaper models such as Tein Flex uses the twin tube design but their high end models such as RA and RE have monotube design. Do you know why if there is no difference in performance? Chuck
Originally Posted by howracer' date='Feb 26 2005, 09:53 AM
as to monotube versus twin tube... i own a shock dyno... it is a non issue performancewise unless you are in F1.
howard coleman |
How much would it cost for shipping of any of your available suspension sets to Auckland, New Zealand?
Have been looking at sets here and there just isn't the range that you have. Would be interested in the Buddy Club or the Apexi possibly one of the HKS depending on shipping. Would there be an advantage going to the HKS over the others? Very informative thread by the way. |
In order to get a shipping quote, please email me your address with zip code to rotaryextreme@aol.com. I will see if it's cheaper to ship those suspension by either US postal service or an air freight company. Shipping will be about the same on any suspension kit.
The Buddy Club and the HKS Hipermax II are almost the same. Same kind of construction with same kind of spring rate. But the Buddy Club is better because the lower bracket is adjustable so lowering the car will not compromise suspension travel and it's cheaper too. Anything from HKS will cost more than an equivalent product because it's HK$. I personally will recommend the Buddy Club one over the HKS. Chuck
Originally Posted by Battyboy' date='Mar 2 2005, 02:17 AM
How much would it cost for shipping of any of your available suspension sets to Auckland, New Zealand?
Have been looking at sets here and there just isn't the range that you have. Would be interested in the Buddy Club or the Apexi possibly one of the HKS depending on shipping. Would there be an advantage going to the HKS over the others? Very informative thread by the way. |
I thought this might have been the case with the HKS. I'll send you the email. Very interested in the Apexi or the Buddy Club.
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there's the usual tradeoffs between single and twin tube shocks...
single tube allows for a larger piston area which allows for more sensitivity. OTOH, if the outer casing of a single tube shock gets dinged it is history. cost differential does not relate to single/double but valve type and materials. i am not opposed to single tube shocks. if i were racing a formula car at around 1400 pounds maybe i would be able to find a difference... but a 2800 pound fd w mostly rubber-bushed suspension? the differential would be so far down the list of priorities. it is much more important to have the correct spring rate/ within 25 pounds of optimum. as i said, i have a shock dyno and shocks are pretty simple things. they have 3 sets of valves... high speed for bumps, low speed for corners etc. their primary function is to control spring oscillations... do too much overcontrolling the spring w shock settings and you screw up the spring dynamics. i have dynoed over 30 OEM fd shocks. regardless of miles all but one (hydraulic leak) spec'd out perfectly. the OEM shocks work great w aftermarket springs up to 350 pounds. beyond that you should go to aftermarket shocks. shocks are not as important as spring rates as most shocks can be dialed in to the area of the spring requirement. i am not saying shocks are unimportant, just nowhere near as important as spring rate. on the subject of springs... we all know they are really progressive don't we? in other words, a 500 pound spring moves one inch w 500 pounds on top of it. it takes 1000 pounds to move it the second inch and 1500 pounds to 3 inches! a 900 pound spring takes 1800 pounds to move it two inches, 2700 pounds for 3 inches! the above are progressive but in a linear fashion. "progressive" springs move upwards in a non-linear fashion... 500 for the first inch and, say 1200, for 2 inches... you can see that running a 700 pound static cornerweight fd will encounter almost no compliance as it goes into bump very quickly. successful performance engineering is about priorities... get spring rates right. howard coleman |
The suspension comes with the upper mount but no pillow ball. It uses rubber bushing like the stock upper mount. The whole assembly is extremely light. Each shock assembly weighs about 10 lbs.
Below are the photos. http://www.rotaryextreme.com/apexexv/1.jpg http://www.rotaryextreme.com/apexexv/2.jpg http://www.rotaryextreme.com/apexexv/3.jpg http://www.rotaryextreme.com/apexexv/4.jpg http://www.rotaryextreme.com/apexexv/5.jpg http://www.rotaryextreme.com/apexexv/6.jpg Chuck Huang http://www.rotaryextreme.com |
Originally Posted by rotaryextreme' date='Feb 22 2005, 11:57 PM
APEX is releasing a new suspension kit for the 93+ RX-7.
32 way adjustable 12 kg/cm springs in the front and back The N1 ExV Damper is the newest edition to Apex's high performance street line of coilover suspension. The Expert Type V (ExV) is a full coilover suspension featuring a threaded base for precise ride height adjustment without compromising shock or spring travel. Apex have taken their street suspension to the next level by including high performance upper mounts and 32 way ride quality adjustment for street cars that are used at the track as well. The spring rates and internal valving of the ExV has been completely refined for excellent ride quality and sports driving. The ExV was designed to cater exclusively to U.S. market vehicles. With this in mind, internal components have been specifically engineered to withstand harsher road conditions and increased wear caused by everyday street driveing. The Expert Type V was developed based upon user requests for a high performance damper that doesn't carry a typical racing suspension price tag. This system stands as their commitment in providing customers with the ultimate in quality and affordability. This suspension has a list price of $1390. Street Price is about $1100. If there are enough people interested, I can do a group by on them. 1-4 buyers: $975 4-8 buyers: $945 9+ buyers: $890! Please post here if you are interested. I will have photos of the suspension next week. Chuck Could I get in for that price of $890 ??? Is that also including shipping?? Thanks, John |
This will be a short duration group buy. The deadline for the group buy will be on 3-17-05 which is 2 weeks from now.
Shipping will be $30-$40 within the lower 48 States. To join, paypal $890 to rotaryextreme@aol.com or call 510-683-8850 if you want to use your credit card. After the deadline, you will pay for the difference between the final group buy price and $890 if there is any and exact shipping. Chuck
Originally Posted by bmwland' date='Mar 2 2005, 03:43 PM
Could I get in for that price of $890 ??? Is that also including shipping?? Thanks, John
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Do you know anything about the HKS Hipermax Type-D coilover set up? The spec are kgf/mm 6 in the front and 4 in the rear. Just curious because I'm looking to get a coilover set up and my buddy is selling his HKS's, but the price on these is very appealing. Is the rate on the HKS to light?
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Originally Posted by howracer' date='Feb 25 2005, 09:39 AM
i run and really like lots of Apexi products and i also run Chuck's toe links which are well built...
that said, being a closet suspension engineer and having road raced successfully for 22 seasons i want to make certain that potential buyers understand just what they are considering bolting on their car. i am sure being an Apexi product the quality is high. take a step back and consider what you are buying.... SPRINGS. so what is the RATE? first off, it is mis-stated as 12 KG/CM. i am sure it is 12 KG/mm. that's 672 pounds per inch. the maximum front spring i recommend is 560 and that's right on the line of being too much spring. secondly... if Chuck is correct, the front and rear springs are the same rate. not good on a front engine rear drive car. the stock Fd runs 263 front and 195 rear. the excellent Eibach Pro Kit springs are 350 front 255 rear my RS*R coil overs which i consider tops are 432 front and 378 rear the Tein Flex which i like are 566 front and 422 rear lots of guys running regular racing springs generally run 550/450 the reason you run softer in the rear is that the primary challenge as to going fast in a front engine rear drive car is making the rear stick. softer bias as to springs, shocks, sway bar and tire pressure ( 30 front 27-28 rear set cold) makes it happen. similar rated front and rear springs will just make the rear slide around. and 32 shock settings? i have a shock dyno and shock valving needs to relate to spring rate. plus or minus a modest amount. how do you say overkill. finally just a word on going fast.... too stiff is slow just as too soft is. there is a common misunderstanding that you have to endure a hard ride to have a fast car. not true. it might seem fast as the car tends to react more quickly to the steering input but when you get to a corner you will find that the car is much harder to drive at the limit. that's because stiffer suspensions do not transfer lateral load any less than softer suspensions. the same force is transferred only faster. faster gives less feedback. it is this feed back early warning that allows a driver to drive at the limit of adhesion. still don't think fast is soft? just watch a NASCAR restart. as the cars weave back and forth to warm their tires notice how much roll is in the chassis... lots. if our cars didn't have a true racecar suspension, which they do, then i could see stiffer springs to decrease body roll... but we have double A arms that deliver negative camber gain on bump so roll is not an issue. bottomline here is that unless you want to buy these coilovers for drifting... where the object is to slide, not go fast at the adhesion limit, find another nice coilover package from Chuck with the right spring rate. howard coleman |
I just recieved/installed the Apex N1 EXV suspension from Chuck. IMO the ride quality is perfect for street application. The price for these coilovers is very reasonable too. When the dampening was set to #1 (hardest setting) you could feel every aspect of the road. I personally have it set to #12 in the front and #15 in the rear for around town driving. Here are a few pics of the Apex N1 EXV on my FD.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/P1010166.jpg https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/P1010158.jpg https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/P1010162.jpg https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...e/P1010156.jpg Mikey |
How stiff is the ride? Does it seem to be more a drift style, or drag/hook in the rear?
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Do you have a running list of people in the group buy so far? I am interested but if it gets down to $890 I'll be in for sure. My Rotary Extreme wishlist is starting to get way too long. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png
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Originally Posted by Atom94FD' date='Mar 10 2005, 06:44 AM
How stiff is the ride? Does it seem to be more a drift style, or drag/hook in the rear?
The ride is not to the extremes of stiff. If you are a daily driver you would barely notice the stiff ride once you turn the dampening down. The stiffness of the springs would only be noticeable if you are a very skilled driver.. for example an experianced auto-x or scca circuit racer taking turns at nearly 100% of your tire grip range. If you are taking spirited street turns it would feel like the tires are gripping the road perfectly. Now, if you are looking towards using the apex exv suspension to take more than spirited turns you could replace the springs in the rear with some lighter springs.. say tein/eibach springs. Mikey |
Originally Posted by wrex' date='Mar 10 2005, 12:44 PM
Do you have a running list of people in the group buy so far? I am interested but if it gets down to $890 I'll be in for sure. My Rotary Extreme wishlist is starting to get way too long. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png
Same question I had, $890 and I'm in. |
What is neat about the apex exv is how the ride height adjustment is similar to the buddyclub suspension. You twist the bottom part of the strut onto the threads to lower the ride height and unscrew to increase. Also, the suspension does not need tools to adjust the dampening because all 4 come with an attached tool to adjust them at any time. What also comes in handy is that it comes with a bracket to hold your brake lines in the front. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/cool.png My old hks suspension did not come with that.
btw, howard's post was very informative. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png Mikey |
Not very much interest in this?
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Dammit.. I have 460.00 to spend this month -
I'm getting these if it means selling the girlfriend! |
I'm keen on these, just trying to get the cash together.
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i need to sell my hks hyper drifts then ill buy these..
i got stuck with the stupid hyper drifts and i dont even drift |
looks good. is the dead like still for 3-17? or can you do another one?
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