Turbo On A N/a
10-04-2007, 09:00 AM
#31
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10
The easy short parts list I used was - From a TII: LIM, UIM, throttlebody, intercooler, piping, exhaust manifold, turbo, turbo coolant and oil piping, throttle cable, front cover, TID, downpipe, BOV, and check valve for the brake booster (designed for vacuum, not for boost)
Other parts needed : oil filter sandwich adapter, NPT fitting for oil, boost gauge, SAFC 2, 720cc secondaries, wideband o2 for tuning, miscellaneous rubber tubing for oil and water feed to turbo, custom weld to fit NA exhaust to TII downpipe.
It would definitely have been easier to just swap in a TII motor, this way was a LITTLE cheaper, but mostly because I already had the SAFC, the gauge pod, and the sandwich adapter. If you had to buy a SAFC, I think it would put you over.
Other parts needed : oil filter sandwich adapter, NPT fitting for oil, boost gauge, SAFC 2, 720cc secondaries, wideband o2 for tuning, miscellaneous rubber tubing for oil and water feed to turbo, custom weld to fit NA exhaust to TII downpipe.
It would definitely have been easier to just swap in a TII motor, this way was a LITTLE cheaper, but mostly because I already had the SAFC, the gauge pod, and the sandwich adapter. If you had to buy a SAFC, I think it would put you over.
10-30-2007, 12:43 PM
#32
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dearborn Michigan
Posts: 21
I’m sorry if people are getting sick of discussing turbocharging and NA, and I can understand their frustration when they are constantly asked the same naive questions. I’m also sorry if I am “crashing” this thread, I would imaging people would get even more upset if I started a new topic for this one.
With that in mind, I will attempt to not get flamed:
I have heard a lot of people giving very vague arguments both FOR and AGAINST turbocharging an NA. People seem to say things like “your compression ratio is too high in an NA” without making mention of mean effective pressure (MEP) calculations. Considering MEP, are there any structural reasons why an NA motor can not withstand the same MEP as a turbocharged TII motor? I have been milling this over in my head while scouring forums, only to find a lack of scientific information. I’m no metallurgist, and have only done a tear down on one S4 NA, and I am preparing an S5 NA for turbocharging. However it seems to me that people often ignore the math in favor of what they have been told, or what they have conjured up in their minds. I’m not trying to make the argument that “turbocharging an NA motor is ok, because people that say otherwise are dumb” I would just like some sound reasoning as to why exactly (in scientific terms if possible) it’s a poor choice. If no one can help me out on this one, I’m going to do it anyway. I’ll try to document and log all I can, and when I either destroy, or make 300whp with my (free) NA S5 I will let others know and hopefully advance this endless debate in some MEANINGFUL scientific way. I post this because I would imagine I am not the first to do this, and I would hope that those of us with some engineering knowledge can help each other out on this one.
Cost is 100% absolutely NOT a factor here, please do not suggest “it would be cheaper if…”
Complexity is 100% absolutely NOT a factor either, please do not suggest “it would be easier if…”
Consider this post ended, but if you think I have gone crazy or that I am a huge jackass, read the following:
I got the rotary for free, I got the turbo for free, and can get replacement turbos for free. I have access to a lot of shop equipment. Things like fabricating "the Aaron Cake Strawberry” will take us less than an hour, and I’ve got lots of metal laying around. Fabrication is not an issue. We get lots of **** for free, so cost is not MUCH of an issue. We are all engineers (both electrical and mechanical) that are trying to learn a thing or two while having a good time in the garage. I plan on purchasing a TII eventually. I plan on NOT investing much money/time on parts that can NOT go from the S5 NA to the TII. I plan on investing most of the money/time in things that will work with either engine, pending minor modification. I’d like to advance the rotary community in some small way, so please don’t think I am trying to disrespect anyone here. I plan on giving a lot back to this community once we have gotten this project really rolling, and I can give some clear scientific results, I am just looking for a little support to get started. Hopefully I will be answering questions soon as opposed to just asking them.
Thanks,
Max
With that in mind, I will attempt to not get flamed:
I have heard a lot of people giving very vague arguments both FOR and AGAINST turbocharging an NA. People seem to say things like “your compression ratio is too high in an NA” without making mention of mean effective pressure (MEP) calculations. Considering MEP, are there any structural reasons why an NA motor can not withstand the same MEP as a turbocharged TII motor? I have been milling this over in my head while scouring forums, only to find a lack of scientific information. I’m no metallurgist, and have only done a tear down on one S4 NA, and I am preparing an S5 NA for turbocharging. However it seems to me that people often ignore the math in favor of what they have been told, or what they have conjured up in their minds. I’m not trying to make the argument that “turbocharging an NA motor is ok, because people that say otherwise are dumb” I would just like some sound reasoning as to why exactly (in scientific terms if possible) it’s a poor choice. If no one can help me out on this one, I’m going to do it anyway. I’ll try to document and log all I can, and when I either destroy, or make 300whp with my (free) NA S5 I will let others know and hopefully advance this endless debate in some MEANINGFUL scientific way. I post this because I would imagine I am not the first to do this, and I would hope that those of us with some engineering knowledge can help each other out on this one.
Cost is 100% absolutely NOT a factor here, please do not suggest “it would be cheaper if…”
Complexity is 100% absolutely NOT a factor either, please do not suggest “it would be easier if…”
Consider this post ended, but if you think I have gone crazy or that I am a huge jackass, read the following:
I got the rotary for free, I got the turbo for free, and can get replacement turbos for free. I have access to a lot of shop equipment. Things like fabricating "the Aaron Cake Strawberry” will take us less than an hour, and I’ve got lots of metal laying around. Fabrication is not an issue. We get lots of **** for free, so cost is not MUCH of an issue. We are all engineers (both electrical and mechanical) that are trying to learn a thing or two while having a good time in the garage. I plan on purchasing a TII eventually. I plan on NOT investing much money/time on parts that can NOT go from the S5 NA to the TII. I plan on investing most of the money/time in things that will work with either engine, pending minor modification. I’d like to advance the rotary community in some small way, so please don’t think I am trying to disrespect anyone here. I plan on giving a lot back to this community once we have gotten this project really rolling, and I can give some clear scientific results, I am just looking for a little support to get started. Hopefully I will be answering questions soon as opposed to just asking them.
Thanks,
Max
02-04-2008, 03:04 AM
#33
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by auricom' post='886712' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:43 PM
I'm sorry if people are getting sick of discussing turbocharging and NA, and I can understand their frustration when they are constantly asked the same naive questions. I'm also sorry if I am "crashing" this thread, I would imaging people would get even more upset if I started a new topic for this one.
With that in mind, I will attempt to not get flamed:
I have heard a lot of people giving very vague arguments both FOR and AGAINST turbocharging an NA. People seem to say things like "your compression ratio is too high in an NA" without making mention of mean effective pressure (MEP) calculations. Considering MEP, are there any structural reasons why an NA motor can not withstand the same MEP as a turbocharged TII motor? I have been milling this over in my head while scouring forums, only to find a lack of scientific information. I'm no metallurgist, and have only done a tear down on one S4 NA, and I am preparing an S5 NA for turbocharging. However it seems to me that people often ignore the math in favor of what they have been told, or what they have conjured up in their minds. I'm not trying to make the argument that "turbocharging an NA motor is ok, because people that say otherwise are dumb" I would just like some sound reasoning as to why exactly (in scientific terms if possible) it's a poor choice. If no one can help me out on this one, I'm going to do it anyway. I'll try to document and log all I can, and when I either destroy, or make 300whp with my (free) NA S5 I will let others know and hopefully advance this endless debate in some MEANINGFUL scientific way. I post this because I would imagine I am not the first to do this, and I would hope that those of us with some engineering knowledge can help each other out on this one.
Cost is 100% absolutely NOT a factor here, please do not suggest "it would be cheaper if…"
Complexity is 100% absolutely NOT a factor either, please do not suggest "it would be easier if…"
Consider this post ended, but if you think I have gone crazy or that I am a huge jackass, read the following:
I got the rotary for free, I got the turbo for free, and can get replacement turbos for free. I have access to a lot of shop equipment. Things like fabricating "the Aaron Cake Strawberry" will take us less than an hour, and I've got lots of metal laying around. Fabrication is not an issue. We get lots of **** for free, so cost is not MUCH of an issue. We are all engineers (both electrical and mechanical) that are trying to learn a thing or two while having a good time in the garage. I plan on purchasing a TII eventually. I plan on NOT investing much money/time on parts that can NOT go from the S5 NA to the TII. I plan on investing most of the money/time in things that will work with either engine, pending minor modification. I'd like to advance the rotary community in some small way, so please don't think I am trying to disrespect anyone here. I plan on giving a lot back to this community once we have gotten this project really rolling, and I can give some clear scientific results, I am just looking for a little support to get started. Hopefully I will be answering questions soon as opposed to just asking them.
Thanks,
Max
With that in mind, I will attempt to not get flamed:
I have heard a lot of people giving very vague arguments both FOR and AGAINST turbocharging an NA. People seem to say things like "your compression ratio is too high in an NA" without making mention of mean effective pressure (MEP) calculations. Considering MEP, are there any structural reasons why an NA motor can not withstand the same MEP as a turbocharged TII motor? I have been milling this over in my head while scouring forums, only to find a lack of scientific information. I'm no metallurgist, and have only done a tear down on one S4 NA, and I am preparing an S5 NA for turbocharging. However it seems to me that people often ignore the math in favor of what they have been told, or what they have conjured up in their minds. I'm not trying to make the argument that "turbocharging an NA motor is ok, because people that say otherwise are dumb" I would just like some sound reasoning as to why exactly (in scientific terms if possible) it's a poor choice. If no one can help me out on this one, I'm going to do it anyway. I'll try to document and log all I can, and when I either destroy, or make 300whp with my (free) NA S5 I will let others know and hopefully advance this endless debate in some MEANINGFUL scientific way. I post this because I would imagine I am not the first to do this, and I would hope that those of us with some engineering knowledge can help each other out on this one.
Cost is 100% absolutely NOT a factor here, please do not suggest "it would be cheaper if…"
Complexity is 100% absolutely NOT a factor either, please do not suggest "it would be easier if…"
Consider this post ended, but if you think I have gone crazy or that I am a huge jackass, read the following:
I got the rotary for free, I got the turbo for free, and can get replacement turbos for free. I have access to a lot of shop equipment. Things like fabricating "the Aaron Cake Strawberry" will take us less than an hour, and I've got lots of metal laying around. Fabrication is not an issue. We get lots of **** for free, so cost is not MUCH of an issue. We are all engineers (both electrical and mechanical) that are trying to learn a thing or two while having a good time in the garage. I plan on purchasing a TII eventually. I plan on NOT investing much money/time on parts that can NOT go from the S5 NA to the TII. I plan on investing most of the money/time in things that will work with either engine, pending minor modification. I'd like to advance the rotary community in some small way, so please don't think I am trying to disrespect anyone here. I plan on giving a lot back to this community once we have gotten this project really rolling, and I can give some clear scientific results, I am just looking for a little support to get started. Hopefully I will be answering questions soon as opposed to just asking them.
Thanks,
Max
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