I had some "high output racing coils" on my baby a while back...gas mileage was around 20-21...then they both popped about the same time...started leaking oil all over...it was rather nasty...and my car ran like crap



Got some "stock replacement" coils to stick into the holes...from o'reillys...but I've had my eye on some msd blaster 2 coils...found some in an e-bay store for right under 30 bucks with shipping thats not too bad...but...i read something about some ignition systems require a "ballast resistor"



I'm assuming its just for some sort of ancient ignition system...but I thought i'd check before I fry something...sure is cheaper to get them without that resistor



anyone with personal experience of using these things?

i'd really like to bring my babys "spark" back https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

I recall having some problems using them with stock ignitors - stumbles, hesitations, etc. Others have used them successfully. There may be a problem with the Blaster having a low 0.5 ohm primary resistance, whereas the stock coils are aroung 1.5 (I'd use the resistor). Otherwise the Blaster is a better coil than the stock one.



What coils did you have before?



BTW - the Blaster 3 is basically a Blaster 2 with a cap glued on, which creates a potential arc-over point.

I'm running DLIDFIS with stock coils on all four of my four port 13Bs (I just rebuilt one recently and will probably fire it up today). I've used Diamond, Bosch, and Hanshin without problems on stock J-109 ignitors. I see no need to get the MSD blaster 2 coils. Infact, I have an MSD 6AL that will go into an engine someday, and when it does, it's getting an FC leading coil. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683329.gif



If you want more spark, look into upgrading the ignition system itself, and not just the coil(s).

Here you go. This is typically what DLIDFIS looks like (alminum plate with two or three ignitors on it). I don't have any recent pictures with all the wiring done, but this is the basic idea.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/upl...1081749841.jpg

Jeff20B-

I think that if you invert (PNP transistor) the output from a J109 ignitor, it can trigger an 86 ignitor. The 86 ignitor is much more powerful than the J109, and the coil has much better RPM capability (only 0.25 ohms).

There is supposedly a way to trigger an '86 ignitor from the FB dizzy without the need for a J-109. I haven't looked into it yet because I'm not ready to take on that kind of a project yet. I think I'll hook my FC leading coil's ignitor to a trailing coil. There was some info on how to do that somehwere out there recently.



I think I'll set up something like this:

Leading will have MSD 6AL with FC leading coil

Trailing will have FC trailing coil with FC leading ignitor

Here is one with three ignitors. Two for leading and one for trailing. This setup had three Bosch or Hanshin or Diamond coils (either/or; it doesn't really matter). It also had a relay feeding power to the ignitors and coils directly from the battery.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/upl...1079943774.jpg

'86 ignitor needs a 5 volt square wave to trigger. 12 doesn't seem to bother it.

If you are slick you can make some sort of photo interrupter thing for the distributor to generate a rotor1/rotor2 select signal to feed to an '86 trailing coil assembly, and trigger it from the original ignitor. Then you have direct fire on the trailing too. (inputs to the trailing ignitor are "trigger" and "select")

I'm not really sure what coils I had before...I could check them I guess...probably not a brand on them tho...they're a light blue...if I remember correctly they were "high output" or some such crap. I'm back up into the 19MPG range again...so I'm not doing too bad right now



I usually don't have any trouble after she's warm...and its not too hard to get there anymore without the emissions. I'd really like one of those MSD ignition boxes...but I don't want to get one unless its going to help my MPG...thats really my only concern at the moment https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



Gas just hit 1.75 for the low grade here...1.95 for high...its...horrible

need to find some sort of alternative fuel for my car https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



And speaking of relays and such...I've been having a terrible time with my headlights...since I added the driving lights into the factory harness especially...the cars idle drops 200-300 rpm with the lights on...would relaying the power help that some?...amp and stereo reciever are both wired directly to the battery and don't cause that problem...so I'm guessing the lights pull off the engine while its running?...its all rather confusing https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/wacko.png

Bosch maybe?





Some people have claimed MPG improvements. I wouldn't expect anything major unless something was wrong with the original parts, but it could be worthwhile.

I have heard from various people that the MSD-5 can improve mpg (on trucks anyway) but haven't tried on a rotary. It's an inductive multispark. Crane Hi6S and DMSI are similar.

Finally, my recent dealing with a GSL-SE leads me to believe there is something to be gained on the trailing side.

First, the trailing ignition was screwing up on this car. I had the owner swap some wires so it would run on lead only (the fuel injection normally triggers off the trail). Normally this would hurt mpg a little, but he said it went down to like 1/3 the normal mpg. Ouch. I finally fixed his car right, but as part of my diagnosis I tried an MSD on the trailing. Ran ok but had no power. WTF? Again, even with the trailing not firing it would have more power. Here's my guess: with no trailing, combustion is less complete, so there's more oxygen in the exhaust. The oxygen sensor thinks this is a lean condition, so the ECU richens the mixture...more and more and more... With the MSD on the trailing, combustion is more complete, so there's less oxygen in the exhaust. The ECU sees this as a rich condition and leans it out. I will have to play with this guy's car some more.





Don't bother with hi test - you can't buy gas too crappy for a NA rotary.





As a test, hook them straight to the battery and see if it slows down. If not, the problem is in your wiring harness (old, oxidized) and yes relays will help.

Here is a nice diagram that RX-Midget made. It shows how to hook up a 2nd gen trailing coil to a 2nd gen leading ignitor for use on 1st gen distributors. I'm going to have it on the trailing side and an MSD 6AL with a 2nd gen leading coil on the leading side. It should do quite well.



http://images.cardomain.com/member_i...36_10_full.jpg

I'm a little iffy on connecting a pickup coil to a 2nd gen lead

ignitor, but hey if it works... It's alot more powerful than the

older ones. Also you should probably bypass the 0.35 ohm resistor

that lives inside the module - the trailing coil is already 0.35 ohms

more than the leading coil.

Thanks for the tip.

My FC leading ignitor has two blacks, two browns, and one red wire. It doesn't match the diagram. I'll need to do a bit of research before hooking up any wires. I don't need another burned out ignitor (two dead J-109s in a row that I though were good, heh).

On the FC lead ignitor-

Case is ground

There should be a two wire connector - one wire is red, the other is off-white/tan/

whatever. The red is the trigger. The other wire is power. It also connects to the

coil. Note that some modules have the resistor on the + side of the coil and some

have it one the - side.

The two black wires you mention should be connected together from the factory.

This is the coil - wire. One of the black wires hangs loose - it's a test point for

a tach or something.

That makes sense. Yeah, I figured the black wires were for the C/- side if the coil and tach signal. That leaves the red(1) and tan/brown wires(2). Since I'm mounting the trailing coil to the leading base, that bullet connector for the tach signal will come in handy. I'll also bypass the resistor. Lastly, I've got to determine whether the red wire you mentioned is the same as my red wire, likewise for the brown wires. To give you an idea, the resistor has brown wires connected to it. I've seen a picture that showed black wires connected to it. I know the FB ignition stuff backward and forward, but I'm still learning about this FC stuff. Thanks for the info. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png Any other tips or tricks you can think of?

The red wire (trigger) is soldered on to a terminal labeled "?GT"

(can't read the 1st character because of the wire). Tan goes to

"B??", and black goes to "C".

The resistor can be located on the tan or black wires - I've

seen both configurations.

Note that this ignitor doesn't do active dwell control - it just

turns on the coil when the red wire is + (although after a couple

of seconds it will shut off). So, if the trigger pulse is too short

it really won't work right.

Also the lead coil has the lowest primary resistance of any inductive

coil I have ever tested. Why the trail is different I don't know.

Also, the trail coil has a "secondary gap" inside it - if you

try to measure secondary resistance, it appears open.

So what is the most optimal way of using the second gen coils and ignitors on a 1st gen?

It depends on what you want to do. A trailing coil will fit on a leading base. Then it can be hooked to the cap for regular trailing ignition, but with a hotter spark than stock FB stuff. No ballast resistor required.



I haven't had a chance to go through the wiring of my FC leading ignitor to an FC trailing coil yet. The wire colors of mine differ from the block diagram and what 83turbo said (sort of). I am busy with too many other things to give this FC ignition stuff some quality time. I'd like to get to know it as well as I know the FB ignition stuff. I'd rather not risk damaging anything until I'm more familiar with it. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

Okay, so I gave it a whirl....1980 distributor (electronic but

without the ignitors) and connected one of the pickup coils to

a 1986 lead ignitor. Yes, it does produce spark, but there appear

to be some problems. First, the signal from the distributor is weak

at low RPM. I don't have a solid figure, but cranking would seem

iffy. Next I connected the 'scope so I could look at the trigger

signal. The positive side looked sort of narrow - since the lead

ignitor is the "dumb" variety, this could pose a problem with coil

saturation time. I would assume the trigger would get proportionately

narrower with increased RPM, but didn't take it up that far due to the

rickety condition of my distributor tester. Finally, I scoped the

current draw by the coil. I could see the current ramp up, but did

not plateau like it should when it hits the current limit imposed

by the ignitor. I tried triggering it with an MSD tester, and

verified the current limit was hit as expected.

So how much current does the '86 ignitor dump through the coil?

I'm having a hard time getting a straight reading today, but I recall

it is in the 7.5 to 8 amp range, so it's at least as powerful as

the MSD "Blaster" inductive ignition box. I haven't seen any other OEM

inductive ignition this powerful. As for aftermarket, Electromotive

is 10 amps, and god knows what the inductive part of the MSD-10 is.

Anyway, this should work:

Get a PNP transistor (2N3906 or whatever). Emitter goes to +12.

Collector goes to red wire on the '86 ignitor. Base goes to a 1K

resistor. Other end of the resistor goes to both the J109 ignitor

output and to another 1K resistor. Other end of this resistor goes

to +12v. I haven't tried this but it looks like it should work.

Darn, I have a NPN 2N3055 transistor. I once used it in some ignition experiments a few years ago. It started getting hot because it wasn't screwed to a heat sink, but I didn't run it for too long anyway. So, what do you think?

To use an NPN:

Emitter goes to ground.

Collector goes to '86 ignitor red wire and to a 1k resistor to +12v

Base goes to J109 ignitor output and to a 1k resistor to +12v

Thanks for the wiring info. Are you saying I still will need a J-109 ignitor? Or will the resistor and transistor help switch the 2nd gen leading ignitor just fine?



I'm trying to find an economical way to use the leading ignitor on a trailing coil. If I can't, I may need to buy a GM HEI ignitor. I'd prefer not to though.

Yes - the J109 is still needed to provide the long dwell signal.

The '86 ignitor is much more powerful than a GM HEI.



The _trail_ ignitor, on the other hand, has automatic dwell control, and is

just as powerful as the lead.

Ah, maybe I can use my trailing ignitor instead. If only I could figure out the wiring. Do you think it would cause any long-term damage to only use one circuit of the trailing coil instead of both? I'd imagine it'd run a little cooler.



If I didn't have an MSD, I'd use one J-109 and the 2nd gen leading ignitor on the leading coil, like you mentioned.

On the trailing ignitor:

Red wire is the trigger

There is a white wire next to it that selects which coil you are firing.

The other 2 wires are tach and "status" to tell the ECU the coil fired (ECU gives a

fault code for bad trailing coil)

The other 2 pin connector is of course for power, case is ground.



Shouldn't be any problem just using one side. (And you've got a spare built in!)

The trail ignitor is just as powerful as the leading.

That's cool! I think I'll just cover the two unused coil connectors so they won't ground on anything or contact each other. I'll also remount the trailing and leading coils onto their bases. That's great because it means I won't need to fab any coil holders, unless I've got a small amount of room to work with (I won't know until I actually try to mount them). I'll leave the leading ignitor in its base for future use and just cover all the connectors so they won't interfer with the MSD's black and orange (coil) wires.



I wonder if I could connect the leading pickup to the leading ignitor in a pinch? You know, like if the MSD dies on me out in BFE?



Sorry to ask so many questions. I wish I could concentrate fully on this 2nd gen coil stuff. My free time is taken up by a 20B. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

Looks like the distributor will trigger the trail the same as it

triggers the lead. Check with a timing light, though - make sure it's

doing what it's supposed to.

Yes - you should be able to use the lead as a backup. I was having some

problems with it at low RPM (below idle RPM). Mazda has used two

different style reluctors though. Maybe the other one works better

for this application. (They sort of look like enantiomers (mirror image)

of each other)).

I'm familier with the '80-only and '81-'85 style. They looks lsightly different, but both have a slow rising rate and then a fast drop-off. It produces what I call 'lopsided AC'. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png This is of course just a guess, but I bet if you observed the wave form on a scope, it would sorta look like a lopsided sine wave. Or better yet, kinda like a heart beat. It's even enough to light up an LED for a split second.



Ok, I'm going to try wiring the trailing ignitor to a pickup that's sitting outside of a distributor (long story). A screwdriver pulled from it quickly is enough to trigger a J-109 (or flash an LED), so I'll see how it does with 2nd gen ignitors.

I got it to work somewhat. It seems the reason why I got this for free with a missing T1 coil is because C2 (blue wire) doesn't seem to work. I hooked up a Hanshin coil on C1 and got it to spark randomly. I tried the pickup and a speaker (have you read my fun way to test ignitors and coils?). Same results; it sparks randomly. Then I swapped the C wires and now C1 is on coil T2 and it finally sparks, but still randomly. The Hanshin on C1 no longer sparks.



The guy I got it from must have assumed a coil went bad, but in reality, the ignitor seems to have gone bad. The T2 coil works great on the MSD, so we know the coil definetly still works.



Is there a way to trick the ignitor into firing C1 every time it gets a trigger signal? Speaking of trigger signal, it's as if it needs a more powerful trigger to spark the coil than a J-109 or the MSD. Why is that? Is it because one side of the trigger is grounded? It seems to me it will not reliably trigger at low RPM, as you've also discovered. If it's below cranking RPM, that's probably ok.



I'll tell you how I wired everything in hopes you can recreate what I've done:



green pickup wire to red ignitor wire

red pickup wire to ground

brown (tan) wires to + of both coils and battery +

C1 to - of any kettering coil (whatever)

C2 to - of T2 coil

aluminum base to battery -

high tension outputs of both coils to two vice grips or locking pliers grounded to battery/aluminum base



I think that's it. Let me know what you come up with.

One reluctor I came across is the other way around - fast rise, then slow drop off.

It was in a 1980 style distributor that was on some JDM mystery motor (13B 4 port,

carb'ed, electronic ignition, nitrided housings).



If the white wire on the trail ignitor is not connected, it should fire C1 every time. You might try grounding it. If it is connected to +, C2 will fire instead.

'86 ignitors need a stronger trigger signal than J109's because they weren't really

designed for use with a magnetic trigger. They use a square wave trigger from

the ECU, 5 volts typically but 12 seems okay. That's why I recommended using

the J109 and tweaking the output. (Incidentally, grounding one of the pickup coil

wires won't reduce sensitivity - one of the MSD mag pickup wires is in fact grounded - green I think). My other concern was what happens at high RPM - the

mag pickup signal gets quite strong - I'm not totally sure the 86 ignitor would

deal with that happily.

Where I said I meant to say C2.



Ok, I'll try the ground or + connection on the white wire and see what it does for me.



Hey, on that mystery JDM 13B, were the mechanical advance slots in opposite directions compared to a GSL-SE dizzy? I've seen one like that once. It's in a custom built four port 13B in a B2000. I just remember looking down into the dizzy and noticing it curved backwards compared to what I was used to. I don't remember which style of reluctor it had. Also, do you know if it has R5 side plates? I've got two JDM four port 13Bs that are nitrided with only four freeze plugs in the rear plate. Is it missing an oil pressure hole? Does it have a what looks like an aftermarket temp sensor in the front plate down near the leading plug?



You can install the reluctor upside down if you wanted to.

Well, I can't say anything on the advance slots, as most of my distributors have

been apart and then reassembled, so stuff has been shuffled. I think that one

right now has a welded shaft from a 12A distributor.

Not sure what side plates it had, as they've been shuffled around; however, I

just recently replaced a rear plate on one of my motors and found some

interesting things. Near the oil filter, some rear housings (typically the old

ones) have a thick rib at the dowel pin boss and some do not. Well this housing

has a distinctive thinner/bent rib in that area. The housings without that rib will

crack under boost (up to 350 HP is probably safe). Anyway I figured I'd try

it. After I put the engine in the car, I went to install the oil pressure sender,

and wouldn't you know it? No hole!



On another note, I stumbled across a Diamond coil yesterday and checked it -

about 1 ohm primary resistance, as opposed to 1.5 I had measured on a

no-name coil. That being the case, a 0.7(?) ohm Blaster isn't as far off as I

had thought. Here's some info from memory:

Primary resistance: Diamond 1.0 Blaster 0.7

Secondary resistance: Diamond 8k Blaster 5k

total primary inductance: Diamond 5.1mH Blaster 4mH

primary leakage imductance: Diamond 1.1 mH Blaster 0.5 mH

Hey, the white wire did cause the other one to spark! It's still random though. I may be getting interference from the battery charger I'm using. I measured the voltage output and it's 11.5, 10.5 and 7.4 (on the 6 volt setting). The ignitor still works, even at 7.4 volts, and it still sparks randomly. At least I know it will spark below 12 volts.



Ok, I just tested it with a row of 9 D cell batteries that went from 12.84 down to 11.96 (they're old). I got the ignitor to spark reliably evey time I'd tap the speaker. It also seemed to work a lot better with the pickup and a screwdriver pulled quickly from the little rectangular 'core' at the center of the pickup coil. The remaining question is how well it will work in a running car. Good thing it's on trailing, right?



I noticed it uses more power when the white wire is hooked to +. The spark isn't any bigger, but the voltmeter goes down when connected and back up when grounded or disconnected. I think for general use, the white wire needs to be grounded or left disconnected. It might lead to less heating of the ignitor in the long run.

I bet you've got an R5 plate there. Welcome to the club. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png Then again, '79-'80 didn't have an oil pressure switch or guage either.



I tried my hand at drilling and tapping the unmachined flat area on one of my R5 plates. It turned out great. I hit the oil 'galley' perfectly centered left-to-right, but ended up a little lower than the middle of the flat spot (big deal). I cut some 1/8x27 NTP threads for pretty much any aftermarket guage. I threw an NPT plug in it for the GLC project, but I'll pull it back out for the REPU project once the 20B is ready.



I have one Y and one R5 rear plates sitting nearby. I'll look for the rib near the upper dowel pin hole.



So the Diamond is actually not too bad of a coil to use? I like them better than Hanshin and Bosch.

I just got back from looking at severla rear plates. In Mazda's attempt to lighten their castings for their 101HP (or whatever) 12As, there is no rib on 12A Y castings. There is a straight thick rib on 3B castings (old non nitrided '74). There is a curved rib on the R5 casting in my GLC. I've got two more to look at in a minute. The 20B has a thick rib that resembles the 3B casting.



Going to look at three or four more rear plates...



Two more nitrided R5s also have the curved rib. The non nitrided R5? '76 Cosmo plate does have an oil pressure guage hole and a thick rub (I'd know which casting it is if I removed the upper inspection cover). I've seen non nitrided R5 plates before which have 5 freeze plugs whereas nitrided ones have four.



Lastly, my '71-'73 twin dizzy 12A has a rib.



So far, the only two that don't have ribs are from two RX-7 12As. One was and '82 or older because it has a pressed in short heater core tube. The other in '83 or later because it has a T shaped heater core hose for the beehive.



So how much power do you think an older R5 or 3B plate can take? How could a newer R5 take with its thinner, curved rib?



Wow, this post got way off topic.

>> I noticed it uses more power when the white wire is hooked to +.

Probably a clamp diode on the input - maybe 12v on that wire is too

much.



>>So the Diamond is actually not too bad of a coil to use?

Generally lower resistance is better, unless the ignitor has some

minimum requirement. The Blaster is the only canister type coil I

have tested with a decently low leakage inductance. More leakage

inductance=more time to saturate without gaining anything. The

Blaster SS, on the other hand, is probably best used with a CDI

because of the higher indutance - too much for high RPM on an inductive

ignition.





>>So how much power do you think an older R5 or 3B plate can take?

Probably as much as you want. There was a guy in Florida running

8.20's on a 12A using 79/80 side housings.



>>How could a newer R5 take with its thinner, curved rib?

Not sure. I haven't broken mine yet, although I haven't been running

it hard either. I know the last housing that didn't have a rib broke

the first time I floored it. I'm told that extra dowel pins can be

installed, allowing the use of any plate. Also some of the racers

plug that oil passage altogether and run an external oil line to

the front housing. Speaking of which, front housings can crack

also but I haven't witnessed it.

Mazda sure has a habit of removing casting from all the wrong places -

ever seen a fuel injected center housing that can be ported like a

carb'ed one? At least they seem to have fired the guy who was

designing their intake manifolds and got someone competent.

Check this out. http://www.pixagogo.com/9194155351 It's an attempt at trailing direct fire. Of course the guy screwed up when he chopped both reluctors because he should have left the leading one intact. Live and learn I suppose.



That's not the reason why I'm showing you this. Have you seen the direction of the reluctors? They're opposite each other. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png It works in his setup though because the one on top is upside down.

Sort of looks like they'd go either way... What I'd probably try would

be to get one of those points to electronic kits that uses a photo

interrupter disc, and modify the disc to provide the select signal

to an 86 trail ignitor.



Off topic? It's the internet isn't it! Well someone earlier mentioned

maybe getting an MSD for better gas mileage. It might be worthwhile

to check out eBay and find some off brand CDI (Tiger, etc) for nothing.

At like $10 a piece you could get one for the trailing too - I think

there is something to be gained here but haven't proven it yet.

Of course the cheap ones don't multispark, but that's done by around

3K anyway (and costs alot vs a cheapy one). Might be worth a shot.

Hmm, those optical points conversion kits might work pretty well for trailing direct fire. It would just take a little minor detail work. I'm sure somebody's going to try it eventually.



About the MSD going from multi to single sparks around 3k, I noticed there is not mention of when in the RPM range it goes to single sparks in the instruction booklet. I wonder why there is no mention of it. At least the instructions for how many wires to clip for the rev limiter of the 6AL are decently descriptive. Also, this 3k changeover would be different for V6 and V8 engines. Wouldn't it be at 1500RPM on a V8? Sorry, it's still early here. (this is supposed to be a yawn) https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...O_DIR#>/11.gif



Oh, I almost forgot to mention that I have a Chrysler electronic ignition box. It allows points of a magnetic pickup to trigger it. Do you think it is as good an ignitor as the stock trailing ignitor for a trailing coil?