I'm looking for some good prices on the ignitors for the project...i'd really like to just not use the 20 year old ignitors...rather buy 3 brand new J109's...but I can't seem to find any...where the best place to buy them...or...well...really anything GOOD...if I can get something just as good for cheaper...tell me https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



The coils I'm definitely getting off E-bay...found msd blaster 2's rated at 45,000 volts for around 30 bucks or so



DLIDFIS

I was reading the info from this page I found on another post

IF anyone has more information...helpful tips...and whatknot...tell me before I get too deep into this https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.png



I got some 1/8" alluminum plate outside that I can use for making a heatsink



uh uh uh....hmmmm

I guess thats really all I need right now...like to get started on this in a week or 2...depending how long it takes for junk to get here...but I need to know where to get all the crap first https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

Hm...been reading a lot about people using the GM HEI ignitors for this purpose...I'm going to be in little rock on friday...so I'll see if I can get some fairly cheap...just one question...is there really much difference in the "high performance" ignitors...such as flamethrowers...and say a cheaper wells or something



If I was running just one...on...the whole engine...then sure i'd go with the largest ignitor I could find...but since I'm going to be running 3 of these bad boys I didn't know if it would make much difference...well...except in my wallet https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



Ok...so say I get 3 of the wells HEI ignitors or whatever...ehm...COILS...I was looking at the MSD blaster 2's...and now i'm looking at some of the Pertronix Flamethrowers...really its going to cost me about the same for either coil...going to order 3 at around 35-40 bucks a pop I believe...the MSD's claim a 35,000 volt spark while the Petronix claim a 40,000 volt spark...I know its probably about the same...uhm...but which would be better for the cheaper ignitors (if thats the way to go)



I'll get the rest of the crap coming before the coils and ignitors...wire...ehm...pure silver thermal compound for the ignitors heat sink...I just love that artic silver that I use here in my computer...great stuff



Uhm...nothing else at the moment...just waiting for someone to verify that this isn't a crazy idea



And i read a lot of stuff that said it would make my 1st gen sound more like a second gen...something to do with the change in the ignition...does anyone have a sound clip that could prove this??...i'm really curious as to the difference

Hmmmm...I feel as if I'm just talking to myself...but anyway



I found a "WELLS IGNITION MODULE" at autozone...model DR100...Its only 15.99 for this specific one...and I found it mentioned on several conversion pages...so I'm assuming it would do what I need it to do



and if those will work...I need coils...good coils...HOT...but cheap...and something that won't blow up on me...i've already blown up a set of coils in the rex...leaked oil everywhere...my car was running like CRAP https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.png



someone...quick...give me advice...while I'm still feeling creative https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

You're not crazy. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png



As for the types of ignitors and coils you should use, all I can tell you is I've had excellent results with stock and OEM replacement coils (Diamond, Bosch, Hanshin). I've used J-109s in all of my vehicles and installed three HEI ignitors in a 13B powered B2000 last year, also with 1st gen OEM coils.



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/upl...1079943774.jpg



Here is a link to the thread if you're interested in the rest of it. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/index.php?...pic=38120&st=0&



Edit: I'm working on some sound clips to let you hear the difference. They'll be ready eventually...

Here are three sound clips of an old style ignition system.

That all looks rather...simple yet...confusing...have a wiring diagram I could gawk at? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



I saw one earlier using the GM ignitors...but I can't seem to find it anymore



hmm...I also see 3 gm ignitors on that board...does that mean I totally bypass the stock ignitors...or do I still need to use them for the signal?

Well on that particular setup, one stock ignitor had burned out a long time ago and then the other died on me while I was driving it. We then swapped in a known good one to get it to my place where I then gutted both the dead ones to act as signal pass-throughs for easy access to the pickup signals. If you can see the other pics of the engine bay, you may notice there is still a stock-looking 1st gen wiring harness near the dizzy. It fortunately had one of the early harnesses with seperate B+ wires (black with a white tracer) for each ignitor B terminal at the T shaped connectors on top of the ignitors. That later ones Y'd both B terminals together to save on the cost of one 10AWG wire, thus making the wire run from the dizzy over to the coils a little lighter and thinner. Luckily I could use what was already there.



The wiring diagram you saw earlier was someone's attempt at modding my original DLIDFIS diagram, only they substituted HEI ignitors for the (not very accurate looking) J-109s that I had drawn. Same idea, different terminal locations.



I honestly don't remember which pickup wire goes to the W terminal of the HEI ignitor. You'll see what I'm talking about if you choose to go with HEI ignitors. I had to figure it out with a spare dizzy and cross referenced it with a speaker (you know, the fun way to test coils and ignitors? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR ). Perhaps 83turbo will know.



Another thing to watch out for with two HEI ignitors in parallel is it might require a faster spinning starter to trigger them due to the pickup signal's splitting into to ignitors. Does that make any sense? My own testing on J-109s showed that if the battery has enough life left in it to crank the engine over, it'll be enough to trigger both ignitors. As for the HEIs, I think it requires slightly more speed. On the B2000, it hasn't been a problem (its Holley has always been cold blooded regardless of ignition system, so it;s impossible to tell since this is the only HEI setup that I've ever done).



It only looks complicated because I over-did the wiring. I used 10 guage wire and looped it a daisy-chain configuration to try to reduce the resistance as much as possible. A bit of overkill, but that's ok. The same setup could be done with half as much wire (it would look a little less complicated too).



Here is another old style ignition clip. you may have already noticed the put-put nature of the exhaust note.

Here is a clip of a newer (direct fire) ignition system. You'll notice that even though it doesn't run perfectly smooth at low RPM (big porting and a large single turbo on an FD), it still sounds smoother and less put-put-ish than an old style ignition.

My starter is pretty much brand new...and the battery is ultra beefy...so I don't think it would be a problem



The exhaust clips sound similar to my 84...but they're not nearly as deep...you can hear my exhaust clip in the downloads section...it used to be really tinny sounding...but after we slapped on the reworked carb with large jets it dropped the tone some...also the glass pack seemed to drop it some more



hmm...10 guage...I may go with that...much larger and you can't find connectors for it...might actually have to go with 12 instead...but I"m not sure...i'll see what I can find



I've never heard of testing them with speakers...altho I have gobs of them laying around...mostly old rx-7 factory speakers that I just can't seem to throw away https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

do you have a clip of that direct fire on a FB perhaps?...and without music and stuff in the background? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

Speakers can be a good way to test ignitor polarity sometimes. Just make sure that the cone doesn't extend too far because it'll snap back and cause erronious readings. http://www.geocities.com/cd23c/test.html



Can you post a link to your sound clip(s)? I'll post a link to the sound clips of my 20B. Massive vacuum leaks and terrible AF mixtures asside, it's what an unmuffled 20B with DLIDFIS-style direct fire (spaced 120º apart) sounds like (better known as TLIDFIS hehe). I'll make some new clips when the manifold is finished.



clip 1



clip 2



clip 3

Nope, I sure don't. I don't even have any clips of any of my two rotor engines.

this should start the download of the only clip I have at the moment



84 12A Exhaust



just a bunch of idling a few revs...altho I didn't let off the gas fully on the second rev...need to make another recording of me letting it off at around 7-8k so you can hear the thing go BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM aaaaaaaaa ha ha ha



I'll see what I can do tomorrow...need to take it out for a spin anyway...washed out the engine bay...and I want to make sure that nothing important is going to not be working...er...uhm...perhaps I just like going on "test drives" https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

Yep, your exhaust has the old style sound to it.

That 20B sounds sick......uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhh, I mean sick in the really bad ass kind of way. Mad props to you on the 20B.

Thanks. Check out your SC thread.

Alright...I have NOTHING to do today...so I'm heading to town to buy all of this crap that I need to do this...heck...I might have it all wired up and ready before the day is over https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



Then I can have a really good recording of the difference in stock and direct fire on a 12A



got my list...and i'm headin to town...be back later

Cool!

alllright...I got most of what I need here now

About to go start fabrication of the igniter plate in a few mins...ehm...lets see



I'm not TOTALLY sure what i'm going to do with the leading coils...I will have to move them somewhere closer to the plugs...so I've got this hair brained idea to fab a plate out of that alluminum and use the top piece that normally holds the coils...thread it into the plate or something...ah...I'll go look at it...still not totally sure how to go about doing this...but I'll find something



I got two of the 3 GM ignitors...which look just like the HEI...not sure if they are...but I doubt there are a lot of them that look the same...of course they can't seem to find me two parts with the same numbers...but thats how it goes with the parts game



I'm hoping the one I ordered will match one of these two that I have here...if not im gonna be pissed...they look identical really...just diff numbers...probably no big deal



got some 99.9% pure micronized silver thermal paste around here somewhere that I use on computer CPU's...i'll stick some of that on the ignitors before I put them on the heat sink...ehmmm....



got another borg warner coil...like the other...I think...but I don't remember it being made in america...guess it could have slipped my mind tho



ahm...and a bracket for it...a solid metal "mr gasket" universal coil cover...also has the mounting brakcet with it...not just a cover...i'll mount the trailing coil into that



mmm...bunch of connectors...mostly for 10-12 guage...but some smaller for the other wires



and 3 20 foot coils of 10guage oil/gas resistant braided wire...green cuz they didn't have red...black...and white



I think i'll use the black for hot...white for negative...green for ground...i'm the only one that works on it anyway...so no biggie



also some XLR mic cable from the music shop...which he tested for me...for carrying the ignitor signal



alright...going outside to work on the heat sink (s)...should have the ignitor tomorrow...so i'm hoping to have it up by friday...i'll record another exhaust clip before I do...and another after https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

OH OH OH...i came up with a GREAT idea for the leading coils...i stole the factory coil holder off my parts car...and I'm going to modify it a tad...and mount it down where the ac pump used to be...then mount the trailing in the stock spot with a dummy coil in the other



this is gonna be sooooo cool when it done https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



got the heatsink marked...now i'm heading out to cut it...then drill all the holes in it

Ok....starting to rain and stuff outside...but I've got the plate pretty much done...i'm attaching a pic of the 2 ignitors I have setting on it...i'm still looking at this dual coil holder...i'll figure a way to mount it if I think about it long enough...i'm really thinking its going to have to go down where the ac pump went tho...not really any other free spots that open...gawd...I can't wait to get this done...my rex is gonna be sooooo cool https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/cool.png

Could someone post up that diagram of the DLIDFIS using the GM ignitors??

either that or tell me what the letter on each pin means...got B and C over on the right and W and G over on the left

In my pic above, the top ignitor is for trailing. As for W and G, I think the G is the same as on the J-109s, but you'll need to test it yourself. Just hook it up and see if it'll run. Maybe try one ignitor on leading and see if the engine starts up and runs normally. If so, you got it wired up correctly. Or if you had a spare dizzy, or knew the ins and outs of wiring up a speaker for testing ignitors, you wouldn't run the risk of testing stuff on your engine.



The rest of your ideas seem workable. Again, I've never hooked up an RX-7, but your ideas have been tried by others with success.

I've got everything wired up with the exception of the ignitors to the magnetic pickups...which one is leading and which is trailing? I got one that faces toward the front of the car...and another that faces over towards the passenger side...already took them out...and i'm ready to jack into the wiring harness with 2 wires...then run that over to the new ignitors...but I need to know which is leading...which is trailing...asap https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png



This is the stock 84 12A dizzy

nevermind...found it in another post...the one facing foward is leading...trailing faces the carb...off to finish up and fire that baby up!

I hope you didn't cut the pickup wires. In all my ignition testing over the years, I've never needed to cut any pickup wires. It makes going back to stock possible (as if you'd ever want to, but yeah).

nope...didn't cut the pickup wires...but...I tested everything...its all got power...and I fire it up...and I get no tach...runs rather rough

I think the mains are firing but not the trailing...think I should re-do the wire I've got hooked into the dizzy?



or is there something I HAVE to hook up to get the tach to work...i saw something about a negative tach line or somethin...do I leave the old neg line hooked up to the trailing coil?

Hm...re-did the grounds on the ignitors...tested with the little light thing...EVERYTHING is hooked up right...except for the tach won't come on...so i'm assuming I need to reconnect the factory neg wire to the trailing coil to get it to come on...then...I think the car might actually run



can't tell where its runnin or nothin with the tach not on...it sounded pretty good (I thought)...then when i kicked the choke back a bit it died with a violent backfire...weeeeeeeeeeeeee



I'm hoping its all done right anyway...it did sound a bit...different?...couldn't really tell if it was missing...or not in time or whatever...i'm giving up for tonight...i'll try it again when the sun comes up...someone tell me what to do tho https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.png



I need to know...what on earth triggers the tach...

negative side of trailing coil, just like stock.



Hmm, once after hooking up DLIDFIS, I accidentally reversed the trailing plug wires. It would idle but would detontate when reved. It barely got around the block. I double checked everything and was like DUH! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683664.gif After that, it ran very nicely.



Hmm, could your problem be the W and G wires got reveresed? How did you check polarity? Or did you? Good luck for tomorrow. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

I just went by the diagram i found on here using gm coils



im assuming the polarity is correct on the diagram



im not sure which is W and which is G on the GM ignitor...its labeled funny

I've got everything wired up similar to this

Ignitor

its down toward the bottom of the page...just sub that top factory ignitor for another GM

on the right hand side I have the hot on bottom...negative on top as in the diagram

over on the left I have trailing sigal into the top ignitor...red into top...green bottom

the same for the leading ignitors that are sharing the split signal from the magnetic pickup...all the signals are running on short pieces of XLR mic cable...grouned very well at both ends...as per instructions I found on another site...I did test the cable before hand...worked great



also hooked in that bullet connector...thing...thats on the dizzy...for ac interference or whatever...everythings hot now...and grounded...unless theres something i'm overlooking



I'll hook up that factory negative back to the trailing coil tomorrow so I can get the tach again



Any idea how much different this is going to make my engine sound?...cuz it sure didn't sound like anything I've ever heard out of that thing...and i've had all sorts of misfires...one coil going the other not...all sorts of crap



Ok...looking at the GM diagram...G and W is where I hook in the signal from the magnetic pickup correct???...cuz thats how I have it right now



and I believe C goes to the coil...as...the negative??...again...i have it wired up like the diagrams on that page



I've looked at these things a million times now...and I don't think my plug wires on the dizzy are crossed or anything...I was supposed to move them all from trailing to leading correct?...to take advantage of that carbon button or something

Well...it runs...sorta

I made a good run...the thing warmed up VERY FAST...in about a quarter of the usual time actually...uhm...and it won't idle hardly at all...when it was idling after a good 2 miles it was only at around 100rpm or so...shaking the whole car...like a lug lug lug lug lug...sounds...Ok I guess



But the thing is almost impossible to start!



something isn't working...and I"m not sure what it is...but at low rpms theres a very noticible miss...higher rpms the thing flys...way faster than usual



I hooked the old negative up to the trailing coil...so i have a tach now...do I need to hook up the old neg back to the leading coils as well??



The only thing I can figure at this point is that I have a bad connection to the dizzy or something...but uhm



I don't exactly understand how this works...if my trailing is hooked into the leading of the dizzy now...doesn't that make all the plugs fire at the same time??



If I can't figure this out by lunch time I'm stripping it all out...and going back to stock ignition...I can't be without my car...and I have a really REALLY important date tomorrow https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...R#>/tongue.png

alright...this is just WAY TOO MUCH WORK...so i'm stripping it back to origional...already did actually...took about 10 mins to do...bumped the key...vrooom



I'm gonna see if the auto parts store will take back the extra coil and the ignitors...then order a set of MSD Blaster 2 coils...won't be quite the same...but it should be rather close...I'm not sure if the 45K ones will cause stumbling or not tho...if they would...which I'll look into before I do this...then i'll just leave the "stock" ones from the auto store



Also found out why my coils I had before these were "hotter"...they weren't for transistor ignition...which might explain why they...uhm...exploded...but man...was I getting some good gas mileage...like 21-22 even with all of my smog junk on the engine



well...I think ima get some sleep now...havn't slept in quite a while

I'm still curious what the problem was. Weird that it ran so well at high rpms...yet not at idle. Almost like something in the timing was fuct. I'll be tackling the dlidfs project in a bit, so I'll be sure to document it well.

It's probably best that you went back to stock ignition.



Did you ever reverse the W and G wires and try again? That could have been the problem.

i thnk it was the xlr cable...wire was so freakin small...and i dont think it was getting a very good connection...for one I was having trouble crimping to it...and I don't think the cable would have lasted with all that heat...and trust me...my engine has NEVER been that hot



And actually...i'm not really sure if the leading was even firing...I think it was just trailing...and nothing else



i'm thinking the reason it was running ok at high rmps is because the engine missing was less noticible...ie...less time/space to burn the fuel



but atleast the exhaust smelled better



I'm pretty sure I had it all hooked up ok...just something wasn't making a good connection...IF the stock ignition ever goes south...I may try this again...but until then...i'm just going to slap some really freakin hot coils on it

Maybe XLR cable isn't the best thing to use. I mentioned it in the article because I figured it would be good to use due to the shielding effect. However, I've been able to get away without using it on all of the DLIDFIS installs. That's at least five so far. Maybe you could try it again without the XLR cable.



The DLIDFIS article is pretty old now. Maybe I should update it to remove the XLR info, or mention that I've never needed to use it.

DO you have any pics of you the finished product. I did the direct fire and it runs great. I never bothered with XLR wire I just used some wires from my old RX-7. I even kept that set up on TII conversion.....here is a pic for ya...

other side

last