I am ready to upgrade my turbo. I have a fully built 13brew with an E6K running 720/1600 injectors. I currently have a TO4S making low to mid 400s at 18-19 psi. The goal is 550-600rwhp.I am considering the following, a gt35/40, T66, GT40. I have yet to see anyone making more than mid 400s with the 35/40, but I would love to see a dyno showing more(as would the owners of these turbos https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR ) I have all the supporting bits done for this project with the exception that I will need a new manifold to fit the bigger turbo(HKS cast now). Any input is appreciated, Carl

it will be very hard to made that kind of power with pump gas, race gas is a different store, to made 550 rwhp you need more the 720 primary, more like 1600/1600cc. also you need a completed fuel system, fuel pump like the aeromoitve big pump and some after market fuel lines. good luck, keep up post it

Im right around the 500rwhp mark with a stock Re-man at 20psi. I can't tell exact figures....Top Secret stuff..... :smirk: Gonna pull the motor and have Demetrios port in this month.

Yeah, make sure you have your basics, like bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, whatever it takes to have enough fuel. And to run the kind of psi to get those numbers you'll need race fuel to keep from blowing motors, but i'm sure you already know. Have you ever thought about doing a partial bridge port or even a full bridge? Is this more of a race car or something that will be driven on the street?

thats the problem we never see enough #s.

Fuel is a big bosch pump(can't remember which one), supposed to be good for 600hp, -8an from the pump to a SX RRFPR @ 1psi/lb of boost terminating at around 55psi on the gauge. -6an line from thereto 720cc primaries and 1600 secondaries(65% duty cycle @18psi boost). In addition I am going to add an external pump and a surge tank at the same time as the turbo. The existing set up is as follows; 88FC,Kirk 8 point weld in cage,way too many gauges, Avcr,E6K, 13brew(13bt plates) with all oil and water cooling mods, various competition bits inside, Street port, HUGE custom two pass Griffin radiator, custom air seperator tank, HKS fmic, two stock TII oil coolers,10mm race wires, ngk race plugs, custom aluminum catch can/breather,new TII diff, Carbotech panther xp race pads,stainless break lines, Full Ground control coil overs w/camber plates, BIG adjustable sway bars front and rear, TSW Hokenhiem 17x8 rims w/Toyo 235-40-17 RA1s all around(need bigger rears!!!) and so on, and so on...Runs on 100 octane all the time(I have a 55 gallon drum in my garage) Waaay tooo much work for only 430hp... Temps are 190* oil and water after 20 minutes on the track @80* ambient (secret cooling mod) Hope this helps, Carl

lets here about this secret cooling mod :smirk: btw nice setup. do u have any pixs?

you may need more then a street port, maybe jumbo street port or bridge port. Nice you can run 100 oct all the time. Us if Cali has beautiful 91 pump lol

Gonna do it on a street port https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif The secret cooling mod goes like this; remove all underhood insulation particularly the rubber at the back of the hood. Remove the rear of two bolts holding the hood to the hinge so that the back of the hood can cantaliever up about 1.5"-2". On the second gen, cut an oval shaped hole in the bumper just like the FEED, and GTC except much larger,roughly 3" high and 24" long. Cutting the bumper support is a bitch :redface: , relocate anything in front of the radiator(except coolers) to the engine compartment. These mods dropped my temps 35* both oil and water. I may have to block off the opening for highway driving as my oil temps are only 150*-160*(water 175). I run 5w30 redline so the low temps may be ok for cruising for the street that's it The hood will lay flat (stock) at rest, and cantilievers up at speed. For the track I use two large rubber bumpers at the rear of the hood. Good luck, Carl

Very nice man :bigok:

cool. do u need to have the bumper support, or could u ditch that whole thing too? and why do u use the 2 rubber bumpers at the rear of the hood at the track(strip?)? is that because of the low oil temps?so the oil doesn't flow or what? i had no idea that too low could be possible. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

Like what was stated before "your not going to have the fuel you need" I'm hitting 80% at some where around 500 hp with 2 x 850's and 2 x 1600's while running dual walboro pumps in the tank... All the fuel calculators your using are for piston engines. Rotarys need way more fuel to get the same HP.. and your going to need a minimum of 4 x 1600's and some water injection would also help.



You can remove the whole bumper support... and you won't have any problem with the oil temps your stating. Actually if you can get them down anouther 20' it would be great... That oil is what is cooling your rotors.. Also my car has had those cooling mod's for years + a whole **** load more so there no secret.. :yum:



for your hp goal you'll need to buy a T51R or somthing around that size and your going to need a HUGE 4 core intercooler or all that flow from the big turbo will just bottle neak and not do ****. Your also probably going to need a outer bridge port and a huge exaust port and at least 60mm runners on the header and a Q-trim wheel on the exaust side of that turbo with a BIG exaust housing like a 1.04 or larger. But most importantly your going to need a Really BIG wallet...



https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif

isn't that true, big wallet mean big power lol that's why some of the civic run in the 9s and most kinds think their civic can run 9s also.

Dragon, a couple of questions, and please excuse my gross over simplifications. I am making 430hp at 60% duty cycle, if I increase fuel, air , and HP 25% that would be 537hp@ 80% duty cycle. In support of this possibility AJC13B is making in excess of 600hp with 850/1650 injectors. Please explain the actual relationship to me. Second why does a T66/T78/TO4R make 650-750hp on a supra, a T51spl up to 1000, but a rotary only makes 60% of that? Is it the volumetric capacity difference of the two engines to utilize the incoming air? I have noticed that for a given size of turbo the rotaries use a larger AR than the supra, for example a T66 .81AR Q trim is optimum on a supra, while several rotaries I know of are using a 1.00AR on the same turbo. It would seem that in order to generate the greater exhaust energy implied by the larger AR the rotary would have to be injesting a commensurate greater amount of air as well. with that in mind, why then do most rotaries make so much less power on a given turbo? HELP!!

Anything other than an aggressive street port isn't needed. Demetrios had run 9.40 @ 145mph on this setup. This is also more reliable than a bridge port is. Hell, if I can run 10.73 @ 128mph on a stock motor, then a regular street port is all I want or need! BTW...I run 550primaries, 1600cc secondaries, and the SR Motorsports Ultimate fuel pump.....(flows 72gph @ 43psi)

Ernie, do you know the specs on the turbo that you're running? I know you have the stage 2 SR turbo, but what is the inducer spec, exducer,AR? You posted earlier+/- 500hp, at what duty cycle on the injectors? Do you run slicks, or streets? What wheel tire combo should I run for those occasional trips to the strip? I am thinking 26.5-10.5-16 streets on an 8" or 9" rim. As for Dragons recomendations, there is no denying he knows how his set up works, and I do want good reliability, BUT I dont understand why a 25% increase in output warrants such a dramatic change in approach. There are lots of Aussies making mid 500s without radical work. Dragon, I want and value your input, I just want to understand the basis of your recommendations. Also with regard to my secret cooling mod, I was trying in my own way to be funny https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/BURNOUT.gif no secrets...

SO, WHO is going to turn it up on a GT35/40 and post some big numbers? Supposedly there are Aussies making 600 withg that turbo(no dyno https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR ). I will make the power on a streetport at 25psi and reliably....determined, not detered... Carl

Carl,

Demetrios just put the stage 2 KKK on Willie's car (his mechanic) and measured it. I forget the exact measurements, but he told me it was the equivalent to a T-76 which is pretty large. (If your not familiar, that would be bigger than a Greddy T88) I run ET streets on the track with the stock wheels.

Generalising again but:

Rotaries can utilise larger a/r effectively because of their pumping efficiency. Someone I know once said they are just a big hole into which you can throw as much air & fuel as you like! The exhaust gas is expelled from a RE at a far greater velocity than your average piston motor. They also move air in far greater volumes than a piston engine of equivalent capacity.Capacity of the engines needs to be considered also. Even with the recognised equivelency factor of 1.7 a 13B is somewhat less than 3 litres! My experience with big hairdryers on rotaries is that the dyno numbers are not always as big as some piston engines, but the on road performance is often superior due perhaps in no small part to the flat torque curve. These big number piston engines are using massive boost too are they not? I have also found that the big turbo is less effective on the rotary unless full use is made of it ie put it onto the compressor map island and use the 2 Bar the big suckers are built for. We have seen 380 + rwhp@ 16 psi out of a hybrid terbs on a stock 13B using T04 comp, core & turbine in a machined out standard 13B turbine housing!

We have a joke here that pistons make SPHP (Shetland Pony hp), but rotaries make BCHP (Big Clydesdale HP) The numbers might be smaller but the pull is bigger!

Well said Robbomaz, i always knew aussies and rotories worked well together. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif

I know that by removing 2 bolts its a no-cost thing, but your driving around with 2 bolts holding the hood down

A cowl induction hood achieves the same effect as yours, so your on track.



Alot of these guys today like these crazy radical looking hoods with vents and louvres that dont do dick for cooling instead of trusting a method that has been around since the 60's.

Yeah I would sat that Dragons reccomendation is a little overkill in order to reach your stated HP goal. A good sideport will give you all that you need. I am not sold on bridgeports for turbo cars yet anyway.



Rotaries use larger A/R's because of the Exhaust pressure. The volume of air is not much different than that of a 2.5 litre engine. cuz thats what the displacement of a two rotor enigne is. However the perephrial port exhaust design gives lots of pressure on the exhaust and this causes a need for a larger A/R.



The main reason a piston engine could make more power on the same turbine is boost. Most Rotaries like the ones we build cant take the high boost as say the 2JZ engine can. Most GT-Rs and supras boost close to 2 kilos and the most I have seen on a rotary is 1.7. I would say that is the reason you see differences.



As far as fuel requirements for 550 HP you can probably slide in there but your inj% will be greater that 80% I dont really worry about that a whole lot when it gets over 90 then I would say time to change.

If you really want to make 600RWHP then a slightly better turbine is in order and then you will need to run larger injectors and a pump that can keep em filled.

I wonder if the PFC and the Haltech have different methods of measuring injector duty. Both Igy and Dragon have hit the 80% injector duty mark(me as well) with 850cc primary and 1680cc secondaries. I have "tried" to get them lower, but I start pinging even with Japanese High-Octane(102+octane). When I had the non-sequential setup, I was hitting 60%-65% injector duty boosting .85 kilos.



My motor is stock and I am running a ND fuel pump with aeromotive FPR set at 3 kilos(~45psi) without vacuum.

Rob, two bolts PLUS hood pins. Ranzo, I'm with you. As it sits I'm going to go with the smallest of my previuosly mentioned options, the GT35/40 Ball bearing, 1.06ar. It seem that this turbo should be good for low 500s@ 20-22 psi. I will be adding a surge tank, a second fuel pump, and some larger primaries. like 850s, or 920s. Careful tuninig of the Haltech, and some crossed fingers. We shall see... Carl

The backwards hood on a first gen has its advantages!



Though I do have to explain nearly every day why the back of my hood is up so high.

Im pretty sure the PFC calculates it using injector size and the map setting for the cells that you are in. Halteck may actually be looking at how many times the injector is firing.

Randy,



What size injectors and what injector duty are you seeing on your PFC?

I see between 84-90% depending on the day. I use 550 prim. and 720 sec. boosting 1K. Stock engine 362 HP.

Has anyone run 20-24psi on a GT35/40? Nocab says 430@15.5psi, RPM Performance says 430@10psi(dyno) all these guys with 35/40, and no one has the balls/setup to turn it up to a modest 22psi, what gives???? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/dunno.gif

Re: 550RWHP!!!!
 

Never get that w/ a gt35, a bigger garret turbo would tho, like you listed