For those of you that don't know, I cracked a front plate on the dyno last summer. So to bring everyone up to speed, here is some info on the changes I've made over the past year. The following post was made on one of my local forums:



Ok, in an effort to keep others informed...I decided that I want to show some progress/changes that I've made over the winter.



Last summer, after a mishap on the dyno resulted in a cracked front plate; I decided that I wanted to build the motor myself this time, as I like to do most of the work and I only trust a very limited number of people to work on my car. While the motor was out, I wanted to make some changes to take precaution and hopefully to prevent mishaps in the future.



On to the changes...



Motor Build - New S5 Turbo front plate (obviously) and I used almost everything that I had from the previous build since it was all still new. I did replace an S4 Turbo housing with an S5 one. I no longer have mismatched rotor housings. Replaced the RA 2mm seals with Atkins. Replaced the RA Teflon O-Rings, and this time I used all ALL Mazda OEM soft seals/O-rings.



Just after pulling the motor. Began cleaning things up and started removing old wiring.

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0036-1.jpg



Notice the Difference in the 2 housings. S5T on left, S4T on right

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0031-1.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0046.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0047.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0048-1.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0049.jpg



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https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0055.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0058.jpg

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0059.jpg



Sold my Haltech E6X and replaced with an E8 unit. Thanks to my my buddy Ron (Fishey) for helping with the wiring and teaching me to solder correctly. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif I removed the dash to take out the Heater Core, Blower Motor, etc..and did some cleanup behind the dash. This gave me plenty of room to do a nice, clean install of the Haltech. I didn't want to see any wiring in the Engine Bay, so we had to get creative.



Just after removing the dash and components. Started diving into the wiring to get things cleaned up/organized.

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0033.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0031.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0029-1.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0034.jpg



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https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0035.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0037.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0039.jpg

https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0040.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0041.jpg



Thinking that the stock coils and an MSD wouldn't be enough for my needs, I decided to run a custom coil setup. I also wanted to run a Direct Fire Sequential setup. So, I did some research on which coils would suffice, and took a recommendation to pursue these BMEP IGN-1A's. They will supposedly light anything you can throw at them. I made up a bracket and used some hardware to create a nice little setup. I contacted Magnecor and had them make me a set of R100 10mm wires for my setup.





https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0035-1.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0036-2.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0030.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/100_0499.jpg





Decided to run dual solenoids to control my dual wastegate setup, instead of 1 solenoid controlling both. Having 1 per WG is the proper way to do it, so I fabbed up a bracket and this is what I came up with.



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0048.jpg



Here are a few pics from re-routing the fuel lines.



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0048-2.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0047-1.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...7/DSCF0045.jpg

Latest shot of the engine bay.



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0033-1.jpg



It's a bit dirty from the work that was just performed. So don't mind it... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif



I just finished reinstalling the manifold, DP, etc. I had 2 EGT bungs welded onto the manifold to aid in a better tune this time around.



Notice a the changes/upgrades:

-Individual Coils w/ Custom Plug wires

-Eliminated ABS, and ran New Factory Non-ABS brake lines

-929 Master Cylinder

-Dual Boost Controller Solenoids - 1 per WG

-Heat shielding around LIM, and Oil Return Line

-Jazz Coolant Catch Can

-Jazz Vented Oil Catch Can (Can't be seen in this pic)

-Re-Routed Braided Fuel lines

-4" Intake Elbow on Turbo (test fitting the cheap filter for size, will order K&N shortly.



Here are a couple teasers of the Front Bumper installed with the CF hood.



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0039-1.jpg



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...DSCF0029-2.jpg

And now this:



Here is an update for everyone.



The last week and a half was probably the craziest that I've had in a long time.

The dyno tuning date was set for April 12th. My buddy (Fishey) and I drove down to meet Chris Ludwig at Automotion in downtown Louisville. Let me preface the rest by saying that the folks at Automotion are very professional and friendly. It was a breath of fresh air to be working with people that were not only car enthusiasts, but genuine people as well. I can see why Chris has developed a good relationship with them.



At about 8:30 am, the car was strapped to the dyno and Chris began to work on the steady state tuning. Everything went very smoothly for about 2 hours as Chris worked his way up through the different load and rpm ranges. Shortly after, I heard the car shut off, and I saw Chris getting out of the car so I came over to find that oil was everywhere, and I then see the cause. The oil filter pedestal had broke in half! Turns out that the pedestal that I had purchased in a GB a couple years ago was a 2-piece design made by "MRC Manufacturing". Turns out that this design had been recalled due to a reported "failure"(hmm, wonder what that was), and urged people to send them back in for an upgrade to the now produced 1-piece design. After inspecting the piece, it was indeed a really shitty design, and the manufacturer and designers should be embarrassed to produce that kind of quality on something considered to be a critical element. So at the time, I was out the time and money spent for the trip down, and incurred a "dyno cleanup fee" for dumping oil all over the dyno (THANKS MRC!)



So we called it a day until I could get another oil pedestal. We re-scheduled dyno time for 8:30am on the following Friday, the 18th. During the week, Chris spent some time to drop the tranny to check the clutch/PP/flywheel for any oil that may have found its way through the inspection plate opening. I took the day off work on friday and made the trip back to Louisville on Thursday evening to replace the oil pedestal with a new unit, and help Chris get the tranny back in. We got everything buttoned back up, and without any leaks, we went out for some road tuning and to get the maps setup for doing boost pulls on the dyno the following morning.



We worked out way up, and eventually did about 10-12 boost pulls on the 11.5psi gate springs. Let me tell you that the car had never ran so smooth. Everything felt great while cruising and pulled very nicely doing the boost pulls that we did. The car was definitely ready to get into boost on the dyno. I was VERY excited and felt good about the following morning.



After we survived the 5.2 scale earthquake that rattled the house like crazy, we made our way to Automotion on Friday morning. The car was strapped down around 8:45, and after some laptop setup, Chris started the car to make the first boost pull. I backed away from the car, and Chris because going through the gears to eventually get into 4th. I sat down and plugged my ears to negate the effects of the dual 38mm wastegates dumped to the atmosphere. I was watching some of the gauges as the rpms climbed, then time pretty much stood still in my mind as I see a nice tall stream of oil shoot from the engine bay, and all over the car. Again, the car was immediately shut off, and my head drops immediately as I knew exactly what happened...



Yep. Another cracked front plate.



Aftter a 2 and a half hour ride home in a tow truck, and a few days to ponder, I'm still stuck wondering what in the world could have caused this. I thought that I had taken all the precautions/steps necessary to eliminate this from happening, but obviously that wasn't the case.



Boost was still on the gates, holding a steady 11psi, AFR's in the low 11's, temps and everything else...A-ok. What in the world caused it to detonate and crack my plate? Why was it fine the previous night, and not in the morning?



For those of you that don't know, this is the 3rd time that I've cracked a plate. 1 rear, and 2 fronts. I don't know what else to do, and I'm seriously considering selling it all, and stepping away from the scene. It definitely sounds like I need to take a hint.



I'll try to get some pictures up of the carnage.



Chris Ludwig, I cannot thank enough. He is an amazing tuner, and I appreciate all of his help and knowledge that he has passed to me. He took things very seriously on my car, and I could tell that he wanted everything to be correct. We are searching for the cause and hope to come up with something.





CLIFF NOTES:

Shitty designed Oil filter pedestal broke in half on the dyno, causing oil to go everywhere. Stopped tuning until we could get it replaced. Lost time and money in the process.



Following dyno session, for no rhyme or reason, front plate cracked on the very first pull. Low boost, 11psi, 11 AFR, temps Ok. No clue as to what happened. Looking for answers.



Might sell everything, and get away from the game.





In closing...I suck, and I'm 0 for 3.

pics of front plate?



misfire? how much power does it make @11psi?



that really sucks, btw. must be something fairly serious to be breaking plates?

Looks just like the last one (this pic is from the other thread):

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/upl...7359_thumb.jpg



No misfire that I know of, it was too loud for me to hear. I know Chris had his ear protection on, so I don't know if he could hear anything.



Probably mid-300's at 11psi, give or take.



One part in question right now, is the Mazda Racing 6-rib pulley. I'm going to compare the timing marks on it to those on the stocker.



I just don't see the timing being that off, because the car ran fine to that point. Even the night before during the same pulls on the highway, no issues.

i have a cracked rear iron on my 13b re , its cracked in 2 spots around the rear upper dowel pin just under the oil pedistal. i am running the dual belt pully from mazdatrix and always wondered if the timming marks are correct as now and then there is igntion break up and my egts do not follow the same pattern as the a/f . i knoticed the marks are off slightly to the keyway from the stock hub. wonder if i have the same issue you do , motors aint cheep to build for stupid hundred dollar pullies being machined wrong

also to add my engine is studded to prevent this sort of thing

Your motor was studded when you cracked it? That's some serious detonation...



I can see if the pulley makes the timing considerably off, but only being a couple degrees wouldn't make a huge difference. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Got any data logs? What did the egts say? No sense in tuning again if you can't find the problem, if you end up building another engine. Goodluck.

SWEET RIDE

is your motor pinned?



if its done incorrectly, that could be a problem.



i love that ignition set up! wanna post up a how-to for that?

Thanks. It might look good, but that's all it's got...Too bad it can't back it up.







Nope, no pinning or studs.



Thanks, I might do that. The ignition setup might be for sale soon, along with the rest of the parts of the car.

You have to dowel the motor, you are putting all the power through 2 dowels, 500hp through a surface area of 1sq cm, it's not enough. We dowel nearly everything especially anything over 300rwhp. We have only had one failure with a dowelled motor cracking and it didn't crack where yours cracked it cracked from the stationary gear hole up and down 70mm per side, a hit with a hammer split the plate in 2 vertically through the centre. The clutch slipped and the motor over reved and the rotor hit the housing.



Get a good dowel job and never worry about it again.

so i just built a motor, and checked tdc, and the "factory" marks were WAY off, like 30+ degrees. it looks like an untouched factory pulley assembly, but all the e shafts are the same, so it cant be.



2, if you're flattening springs its detonating....

I have little skill with boosted engines, and it is a shame to see such a huge amount of work go up in smoke. I have been able to break out a front dowel hole in a 12A NA engine, and there are few people around who can say that. I notice that you have an AN fitting in the vertical gallery adjacent to the dowel hole. Is this a boss and "O" ring fitting, or, a tapered pipe fitting?



The tapered pipe fitting is not used because of the likleyhood of cracking out the hole from stress developed when the fitting is tightened.



In my experience it takes more than a little bit of detonation to break out a dowel hole. However, just one or two preignition events will do it every time at full throttle. I would look for the lead (low voltage) wires to the coils to be separated and run from two locations as far apart as is possible. Could even be run through some dash 4 stainless braid covered hose, with the braid grounded to the chassis. The coil wires should be inductive to help limit RF radiation. The coils should be spaced apart. The high voltage wires should be kept as far apart as possible, and well away from the low voltage wires.



When there is good cylinder filling the amount of energy required to fire a plug goes way up. So one way to prevent a misfire in any kind of system is to gap the plugs real tight. My race plugs are gapped at .010" with dual MSD-6ALs. Never a misfire

up to 9,600 RPM.



You can build a TDC setup like mine and check the timing marks on the pulley and remark them as required, and even better,

bolt on the counterweight and flywheel and add the timing marks to the flywheel teeth, for a super precision timing system.

Make up a cover that has a timing pointer attached.

They do that on aircraft installations for easy timing, standing next to a spinning prop. Done on Cosworth engines as well.



My guess is that you get an occasional induced hit 180 degrees out of sync for that housing.



Another thought. One of the airplane guys uses nitrous to get his amfibious plane out of the water. He shuts off the trailing ignition to prevent detonation during the nitrous. When you think about the definition

of detonation, you could deduce that too much split on the timing could look like detonation to the boosted engine.



On a night after a hot day, the humidity is high, and the oxygen count is low. In the morning after a cool night the dew is the water vapor condensed out of the air, and the oxygen count is high. More power is available in the AM.



Lynn E. Hanover

In my experience it takes more than a little bit of detonation to break out a dowel hole. However, just one or two preignition events will do it every time at full throttle. I would look for the lead (low voltage) wires to the coils to be separated and run from two locations as far apart as is possible. Could even be run through some dash 4 stainless braid covered hose, with the braid grounded to the chassis. The coil wires should be inductive to help limit RF radiation. The coils should be spaced apart. The high voltage wires should be kept as far apart as possible, and well away from the low voltage wires.



I should have stated here that the low voltage wires for the coils should be in individual braided hoses, never run together in the same hose.





Lynn E. Hanover

You have two possible causes IMO:

1. detonation witch will not happen at 11 afr unless your timing is way off for the bridgeport. Verify the pully to the stock one, timing lock and unlock. U can run well with very retarded timing next time to eliminate that.



2. Missfire from being too rich, bad cas, or more likely RFI as Lynn said. I had oil on my wires once and it missfire like mad, put new wire on and it got ten times better, moved them to different position and it went away.



Week later I got one missfire at 3rd gear wot 18psi, then several more the next time b4 I cracked back dowl landing. Don't know 4 sure if it was a progressive problem then finally went or one real bad hit...btw I was at 10.5-11afr as I have run for 2 +years and thousands of boosts.



I am rebuilding it right now and found my cas to have a pretty wide gap compaired to others I have looked at-I'm hoping that is or was part of the ignition problem being so sensitive. It also doesn't help that I have a FC1000 amp too. Sometimes I would see a jump on the datalogs.



I have been told to make sure the engine will rev perfectly b4 boosting as it is a decent test for irradic firing. Data log it too for being smooth.



Also those housing look like the holes ar in different locations lol.

Was the engine fully warm when you did it in the morning?





I feel your pain. Focus on the ignition and give it another try.



Scott

What plugs were in it?

Here is a tidbit to think about.



There are some things that remain the same no matter what else is going on inside an engine. The flame speed of a mixture is just about the same for any given pressure, no matter the RPM.



The engine timing is adjusted to produce the ideal torque (highest cylinder pressure) at about 50 degrees ATDC. Higher boost=higher effective compression=faster flame speed. So, with the boost up, the advance required to get the highest cylinder pressure at 50 degrees, needs to be retarded to account for the higher flame speed.



So you might see much more advance at partial throttle, coasting and light throttle cruise situations. Light throttle and closed throttle gives you way less than the rated compression ratio, because the inlet is being restricted, and the cylinder cannot fill completly. So, 10:1 might become 7:1 or 8:1 compression, That is where the advance comes back up. Very little fuel to light, and poor compression to help sustain the flame. So, the big timing head start gets the fire going early and that brings up the cylinder pressure for a bit more heat and a more complete fuel burn.



So when off the power, there is no concern for the proper angle for torque, since you are not calling for power, the concern is for a good burn and lowered polution levels (HC).



So the engine controller must be able to sweep the timing from less than zero (ATDC) to 35 degrees (BTDC) in near zero time.



The compression ratio is then variable based on the amount of boost. Let us say that you determine that the effective compression ratio at 6,000 RPM and 30 pounds of boost is 13.7:1. How much advance is required now?



The timing is measured at the crank just like the piston engine. So one can imagine that 35 degrees on a piston engine has some relationship with 35 degrees on a rotary. It does not. The rotor is moving like molasses and the crank is turning three times faster than the rotor. That 35 degrees on a rotary is only 11.6 degrees at the rotor. The rotor also spends a lot of time at or near the TDC position (Dwell). There is plenty of time to burn all of the fuel available. A piston engine spends very little time at or near TDC (Dwell) and needs lots of advance to get anything burned.



So, gobs of advance is not required on a rotary. On an NA engine 20 (6.6 degrees at the rotor), total is plenty up to 9,000 RPM. In a boosted engine far less.



In engines with no electronic timing management, it is possible to detonate the engine at very low speed, by just opening the throttle wide. Suppose you are in thrd gear just barely moving along, you need to accelerate but instead of dropping down to 2nd you just bury the throttle pedal. The cylinder filling suddenly goes to 100% or slightly more. The timing is whatever it should be for the dismal speed you are going, say 15 degrees BTDC. The engine is turning only 1,200 RPM.



The car shudders as you crack a corner seal. ???????



The timing for fast idle is far more advanced than is required for full throttle 100% cylinder filling. The flame speed for full throttle (full cylinder) burn with highest pressure at 50 degrees ATDC is 3 degrees ATDC. The lack of vacuum will now retard the timing about 1/2 revolution after that seal cracks. The effect here is that since the rotor will not move by the TDC position before all of the fuel has burned, the cylinder temperature will go too high, and the upper apex seal will be the location for the start of a second flame front.



The moral here is slow down on the full throttle move. Give the loss of vacuum a chance to work. Drop down to the the proper gear before accelerating. The engine will respond properly and all of the pieces will remaine in tact.



Lynn E. Hanover

I note that in one picture of your fantastic installation, that it looks like intake air is being collected from inside the engine compartment. Detonation is charge temperature dependant. Intake air must be the lowest temperature air available. At the top of the radiator opening or the center of the cowl.



Lynn E. Hanover

one of the neat things about obd2/whatever they call it now, is that you can take a new rx8, and the mazda diagnostic computer (its nothing fancy, same software as we had at hyundai) and go drive around and either watch or datalog the timings vs throttle position.



what you find is that mazda runs very steep curves, 2500rpm in 6th, and its running 40degrees advance, hit the gas, and it'll drop to almost tdc at the same rpm. give it half throttle, and about 3/4 of the advance goes away... the curves it runs are WAY steeper and taller than we're used to putting in our aftermarket ecu's....



the rx8 (prolly due to emissions) doesnt get to its peak wot timing (30L with a split, between 8-12 it varies a little) until 6000rpms, from 2500 and about tdc its a long slow climb....

C.Ludwig and I spent some time yesterday to pull the motor and tear it down. Everything looked fine inside, so no issues there. No flattened seals or springs, just a cracked front iron dowel land.



Ludwig rigged up a jig to check TDC using my E-shaft and pulleys. We did discover that the TDC timing mark on my Mazda Racing Pulley was a bit off. We were actually hoping that it would have been off on the advance side to give us some sort of indication that the pulley might have been the cause all along. Instead of being advanced, it ended up being off to the retarded side, 3.5 degrees to be exact.



At this point, after the tear down, the cause is still unknown but there are a couple theories in place. 1) The combination of the pulley timing marks being a few degrees off, along with the the play or "slop" in the CAS, magnifies the possibility that the ECU could see a crazy event leading to firing the plugs at the wrong time, stuttering the motor, shifting the plates, cracking the dowel land.

2) In discussing some of the wiring of the ECU, Coils, and remotely located battery, it might be a possibility that I need to re-wire some grounds in the car. I'll go into more detail on how I have it currently wired to get everyone's thoughts on this theory.

That -AN oil feed fitting is a straight fitting, and not an NPT thread, so it does not cause stress on the plate.



How can I gap plugs that cannot be gapped? The plugs that were in the car at the current time were a fresh set of BUR9EQ's. We were only going to use these plugs up until our pump gas limit of 14psi. I had a set of NGK Racing 10.5's for higher boost levels. I don't even think the 10.5's can be gapped either?



Is there a different plug that I should be running?

Please forgive the grade school drawing, but here is an example of how the ground wires are routed throughout the car.



The only (+) power wires that are shown is the 2 gauge wire running from the battery to the (+) post of the remote terminals in the engine bay, and the stock power harness/fuse block wiring which make their connections also on the remote terminals.



Any thoughts/suggestions are welcome.



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...RX7/wiring.jpg

Here is the proposed solution that is in discussion right now:



https://i269.photobucket.com/albums/...ng-updated.jpg

I am gonna lean towards detonaton,to much advance or, some will argue this, but 9's are to hot for what you are doing.. Its not just the boost pressure that picks the plug, its the combustion pressure and heat.. You are at double the rear wheel hp and using a highway plug.. There are other factors which influence this choice, but generally the stock plugs are for stockish setups..In a shop I worked in, we had to install 10.5s through to 11.5's in stock turbo'd cars that went to track events to bring down the knock levels when hot and give the car some safety margin, and thats on stock ecu's on 100 ron gas..

Also when you get on a dyno, you will hit map spots you have never touched on the street,because you are not really driving the car, you part ways with your driving style. I don't gun my car from 3000 in 4th, I usually downshift on the street. Dyno's load cars differently than street driving and every dyno will do it differently.. You may get into shallower or deeper cells than you would on the street.

My dyno has airbrakes which tends to overload on a car with noisey ignitions(rotary), its best to do light pulls first to see where its at.. I am guilty of running cars unmuffled on the dyno, but its not the best way to do it, you cant even hear the start of pinging pull when its unmuffled, and by the time you do , its often to late..

The engine doesnt need to be extra dowelled, pinned or studded for your power levels, its way to easy to go off on tangents with problems and never solve the simplest ones, you end up with a lot of trick parts and a none running car.. Thats the age old problem with the boosted rx7, tuning is such a black art, we tend to buy every trick piece thinking thats gonna be the golden key to taming the motor, when in fact its just the digital numbers that make most of the difference.

Rebuild it again, find a dyno centre that has a knock amp..

i noticed on the track with my helmet on, was really good for hearing misfires/etc, but yeah hearing knocks/misfires is a problem



do a google search for det cans...

Well, I'm giving this one more shot.



Here are the plans this time around:



-New OEM front plate (thick dowel land)

-4 New OEM Dowel Pins

-Re-wire Factory Battery Harness (Starter/Alt/Fuse Block)

-Re-wire Ground System using Bus Bar

-Banzai Racing Oil Pan Brace

-Aeromotive Fuel Filter w/ -6 SS lines (replaces factory filter)

-FD Oil Pressure Regulator

-Vacuum/Boost Manifold

-Switch out the factory CAS for a Haltech Hall Effect Sensor w/ Magnets



Also, of course, the rebuild will be done with all NEW OEM O-rings. Everything will be cleaned, inspected, clearanced during the rebuild as well.



C.Ludwig and I will be doing the rebuild and should have this thing back on the road shortly.

just be picky and take your time putting it back together https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif