What would happen if you cryp treated a rotary? I mean everything, housings, rotors, plates, apex seals, e shaft, everything!



Would if affect anything? maybe the seating of the apex seals is all I can imagine. but i dunno, anyone?

I wouldn't bother, but that's just me.

I think, if it will work, that it might be worth it for me, since i'm gonna be running a high compression motor, with boost.



The extra strength that it gives the metal might pay off in the end and keep me from cracking anything, and with the apex seals, if they could be strengthend, it would be awesome, give a little resistance to cracking because of detonation

basically if the apex seals are the weak link, then cyoing everything else would be sort of a waste, because if the apex seal breaks its going to ruin the rotor and housing most likely anyways.

but if you cryo just the apex seals, they will be a harder metal than the housings and would never seat.

If you want hard apex seals, you should try ceramic or Rotary Aviation.

i don't want them to be harder really, just stronger. What if you did everything but the seals. Would theat help it hold boost, similar to what doweling does?

I think you need to consider what other people are doing before you do that.

There are a lot of people running very high HP without any problems related to what cryoing parts can do for you.

While it can be a small help, it really doesn’t warrant doing it for a engine that would even be under the top stress seen in a rotary.

Typically the parts that are cryoed are side seals like the oil control rings.



And dowling a engine is really more for very high HP cars, to stop the plates and housings from twisting.

I am going to be running 9.7:1 compression rotors, with a to4r turbo, hks blowoff, and custom straight exhaust feeding into a single apex i N1 muffler, no cats

and it will see decent boos occasionally.

so you think it would help there, or would I be wasting my time?

Instead spend the money on a two peice eccentric shaft and some of their hardened engine bolt things (forget twhat their called), heat coat the rotor surface (Rotorsportsracing or Gothamracing). If you really wanna piss money away there's allways aluminum plasma sprayed side housing (Racing Beat) and Ceramic Apex seals.

how much hp are you looking to be getting ?

as much as possible https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png with the engine not needing rebuild every 20k miles, I want 50k miles before the next rebuild, so I'm lookin 450 to 500 hp, and yea, I know more can be had if I get a turbo motor, but I like the powerband that this setup will give, even though it won't max as high

tuning and not boosting all the time will make your motor last more than 50k miles

oh yea, i plan on having it dyno tuned in new orleans. and i won't boost all the time, well, not as much all the time. just when I feel like making civic owners **** themselves https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png haha, j/k



Im lookin at a half bridge to spool a to4r, like I said, so I'm hoping that will last longer than a full bridge, and still idle with a/c running.

i think people need to look into what cryotreating really is.



I can't find any reference in text books or industry standards. It is not listed as a process in ANSI or ATSME.



I can understand if you are tempering it and using super cooled fluid with high heat capacity to avoid cetain regions of the phase diagrams to get martinsite but if you are someone taking a disc rotor or a gear off the shelf and cooling it in liquid nitrogen and taking it out, you are wasteing your time.



I talked to a metullurgy professor about it the other day over coffee, lab results show only marginal gains in rockwell hardness and yeild strengths, and those can be discredited by the tolerance in teh equipment used to measure the values.



It may however reduce the stress concentrations on the object you are treating, but that is not documented, and has not been found quantitiatively yet.



So in my opinion you are wasting your time. But that is my opinion and everyone has their own.

part b to that would be that if you get into detonation really bad its gonna break it anyways, weather cryoed or not

ooo, its nice to hear that mechanical engineering talk there, that tells me what i need to know, thanks, I'm not gonna try it.

It has been my experience with cryo treatments in building hi perf motorcycle racing engines, that it's worthless, and a waste of money. the only items that benefit from cryo in a piston motor are the pistons themselves, that said, doing the piston rings is a large mistake(sealing issues occur if the rings are done), as well as everything else. found no benefits and found it to never run cooler than a non treated motor as was claimed.



ceramic coatings to the rotor may help, but I am new to rotaries and cannot verify this, on a piston engine the ceramic coating on the piston top and combustion chamber will keep the heat where you want it.



teflon coatings are another option as well, but friction doesn't seem to be a major issue in a rotary motor, so I would keep it simple and not try and reinvent the wheel. do things like reduce your rotating mass, remove any obstructions in the intake and exhaust tracts(porting) work on your fueling (mapping, and not just at WOT, a smooth clean bottom side of the map will make the top end go that much better)



good luck

How can teflon be effective in an internal combustion engine, when the enviroment inside an internal combustion engine is outside the heat range of teflon?



Cryotreament = ricer BS



Cermanic coatings prevent thermal conduction, I'm not sure if this is good or bad.



One real performance gain is to use some sort of reinforced cermanic on an aluminum block such that you are able to reduce the weight of the block even more by taking more material off and allowing the ceramic to take the abuse of the heat and stresses. But the toughness of the ceramic is not very high

a rotary has something like 40% less friction at 5000ish rpms than a similar sized piston motor, so thats one area where the rotary is better.

Cheers!,



Teflon coatings are in use right now on all sorts of surfaces in piston motor such as con rod and main bearing surfaces, piston skirts, wrist pin bores, valve stem surfaces. In all racing venues, nascar, short track, sprint car, drag racing, etc....



You can buy bearings from bearing manufactures with teflon coatings already applied to them.



High friction areas benefit from it, coating the top of a piston with teflon is not what I was talking about and would be a useless venture.

I build motorcycle race engines for a living and use these coating frequently and their benefits if applied properly are worth using.

Cryogenic treating has been in use in industrial circles for some time now. Mainly used on saw blades, metal cutting inserts, end mills etc. The treated parts wear much longer than un-treated parts. The process has also been used on brake rotors for increased wear life. This process would probably work very well on the wear parts of a rotary - side plates, rotors, rotor housings, apex seals, oil seals, and e-shaft. Side seals would benefit but may not be economical due to the relatively low price of the side seals.

Do u have any reference to a ANSI or ATSME paper? because i can't find one.



FoxPerformance, Do u have any knowledge of single cylinder engines? Like a Suzuki DRZ400? I need to get more Horsepower from it, I have added a thumper big bore kit so that it is now at 470cc, and also rediclous cams from hotcams. The engine has to pass through a either:



Gasoline fueled cars - 20.0 mm (0.7874 inch)

E-85Fueled cars – 19.0 mm (0.7480 inch)



restrictors with the throttle body before the the restriction.



THe HP figure are not imporving, but the torque is rediclous with the bolt on goodies.



Should've went with a CBR600...

what happens to power without the restrictor? maybe the cams are too big for the air flow the restrictor permits? maybe you need a venturi to speed up the intake? hmm too bad you cant really get a single cylinder to scavenge, or can you? just some ideas

actually teh new cams and bolt on goodies are not giving much of an increase in hp without the restrictor. Though i've only tested the engine using teh factory carb... the tec3 is being wired up as i type this.



my idea is trying to increase the intake runner length. Calculations have showed that if i flare the restriction back to stock size at 4degree the effect of the restrictor is minized. THe biggest problem with a huge single cylinder, is that during the intake stroke it sucks ALOT of air from the intake runners, so much that if hte intake runner is too short it can't refill fast enough for the next cycle.



But having an intake that is too damn big causes **** for throttle response. You close the throttle plates and the engine has to use up all the air in the intake before it decels, so i can't merely make a giant intake cone.

hmm yeah. that sounds good. also not having the factory carb should help, it might have been holding you back

maybe next year the turbo dreams will be realized. The exhaust pulse from a 470cc single cylinder engine is very strong

I have run into this problem on some supermotard engines i have built, specifically the crf 450, you put in a big piston, and the torque goes crazy but top end power is a little more at best.



I am out of my home state right now, but I can post some dyno graphs of the before and after showing exactly what's happening to the power it's pretty impressive, and the torque curve shows that the head won't flow any more.



It has been my conclusion that when it comes to racers, there are two types, ones that need help getting off a corner and ones that don't. the big piston motors are for the guys that have slower corner speeds.



The best I can reccomend is if you have someone that can do head work, get the biggest valves you can in the head, and experiment with the intake tract as you are already on the right path. I have a source for getting custom sized valves and valve seats. if you get that far into it, I don't know what size valves the DR will take. I would try and talk with Yoshimura, they would know lots more than I would.



I don't specialize in these types of engines so my experience with "what works" and what doesn't in singles is pretty limited.

Foxperformance,



Actually this is more of a university project... the engine goes into this:



http://engsoc.queensu.ca/formulacar/car_2003.jpg



I think inorder to match the 100+ horspowers from some universities with CBR600 with a turbo, we need to get a turbo as well.



THe power to weight ratio of using a single is less then the potential for a 4 cylinder.



however the point of the project/competition (formula SAE) is to be different. So the idea with the single cylinder was because the race track are small autox courses so top end power isn't as important as handling. But the engine runs out of steam at the small straightaways when the CBRs just take off, but when it gets to the corners our car corners equally or better.

ooooof!, your trying to get 100 hp out of a single drz 400?.....for use in a car....



you will achieve this HP # with the turbo, but trust me it will be short lived, and will not last, the crank, I should say the rod will not take this abuse.



the crf rods barely take a half a season of punishment with the 500cc piston, and this is being used in a lightweight dirt bike used on a road course(supermotard racing) by real riders, not sunday strollers.



do a search on a swedish bike called a HIGHLAND these use very small displacement v twin engines which may be a better route to take, or possibly a better engine to use would be a suzuki sv650 motor.

with a twin you can build a scavenging exhaust too

too late, the team is commited to the single cylinder, it was selected last year, this year was futher devleopment. We have 2 dead engines sitting around. One blew the bottom end, the other one lost oil to the heads and the exhaust valve seized and the piston shoved it through the head and bye bye motor number 2.



Max displacement is 610cc. There are talks in the team of using a Honda 450cc 4 cylinder found in the japanese market only. But that is $$$ and parts are scarce.



We aren't trying to match 100 hp, maybe get around 60 HP. 60-65 HP would give us the same power to weight ratio as cornell with their yamaha 610cc turbo.

Cryo treat the rotors and the steel housings, but nothing else. Have the parts checked before and after treatment to make sure they're still in tolerance.



The apex seals are already heat treated, the cryo won't work on aluminum, and will have no effect on springs.



Dave

I don't have any ANSI references there are a lot of shops in Canada and USA that do the work, for example http://www.300below.com/jobshoptech2.htm

There aren't any ANSI or ASTME references because cyrotreating is useless. For the amount of money you spend on cryotreating u might as well use better materials with superior properties.