I am going to sell my miata(www.plainmiata.com) for a 93 R1. I was wondering, with 3mm apex seals how much stronger does it make the engine eg: how much boost can u safely run with the BPU's(basic performance upgrades). Also does anybody know the price of getting the 3mm apex seals installed?





One more thing has anyone ever tried a DIY intercooler setup...like a starion intercooler?

Dude, I talked to Skip from KD Rotary, he said he would put 3mm Mazda apex seals in, do the machining, street port my engine, and install silicone gaskets and o-rings for $3780.00 https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/wacko.png As most people I don't have that kinda cash just lying around. And speaking of that, does anyone think this is a good or bad deal??

pretty shitty. get with kevin at rotaryressurecton.com he has great prices, and does great work from what i've heard, I might be sending my rotors to him soon.

They don't really provide any more strength or allow you to run higher boost. They still blow up when you run lean. They might take a tad bit more abuse, but just like ceramics or any other "magical" seals, they break the same way just as easily. They come in handy when your rotor's have worn out too much for 2mm allowing them to shift around. If not machined perfect, they will get spit out of the groove too.

then how do some people run 20+ pounds of boost and such....your saying the stock apex seals will hold up as long as you have good fuel management?

have you priced out 3mm seals? they are way way way too much. in my limited experience they are worse than the 2mm seals for just about everything.

I paid $600 for my hurley seals. Isn't that about the same as stock? Ceramics if I remember were about $1200.



People run 20+ psi on race fuel. I ran 18psi on pump gas just fine for a couple years and 35k miles. The seals don't stop detonation, tuning does...so yes stock seals with proper fuel managment will be just as good as anything else out there. Doesn't matter if they were 6mm seals, as soon as you detonate they will break. Stock seals being a 3 piece design will seal slightly better, though over time can warp the groove they sit in, which is what happened in my case. Its also a good idea if you go with 3mm to add some oil to your fuel for the added lubrication needed for the extra surface of the 3mm seals.

[QUOTE]I paid $600 for my hurley seals. Isn't that about the same as stock? Ceramics if I remember were about $1200.



People run 20+ psi on race fuel. I ran 18psi on pump gas just fine for a couple years and 35k miles. The seals don't stop detonation, tuning does...so yes stock seals with proper fuel managment will be just as good as anything else out there. Doesn't matter if they were 6mm seals, as soon as you detonate they will break. Stock seals being a 3 piece design will seal slightly better, though over time can warp the groove they sit in, which is what happened in my case. Its also a good idea if you go with 3mm to add some oil to your fuel for the added lubrication needed for the extra surface of the 3mm seals.









Thanks for the info. How much did it cost to rebuild your engine with the 3mm apex seals? I called www.RX7.com and they said like 5 grand. That **** doesn't make any sense. I called another company and they told me 2500

Well I did it with my mechanic. Rotorsports racing did the porting. I spent around $1500-$2000 by time I was done with seals, gaskets, porting, lapping, machining, few other various parts and had to replace a housing which I got for $300 from Brian at rotorsports.

costly ****, huh?

You shouldn’t have to worry about putting 3mm apex seals in as long as you have a good tuner, tuning your car for you. All the 3mm seals are good for is withstanding a little bit more detonation then the 2mm seals would. So all in all tuning has a lot to do with it and also keeping up with regular maintenance such as making sure you keep your plugs clean, having a good fuel filter, good fuel injectors and stuff like that.



Good Luck.

Me and a buddy (Tony) ran 25psi of boost on a Ser 5 13BT with the 2mm 3-piece apex seals. Ran just fine. The issue is tuning, both fuel _AND_ ignition. Most people don't stress that enough but ignition timing control is probably even more-so important (and detrimental) to the life of the engine under load.



B

has anyone tried these guys

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm



this is what they claim

These seals offer 700% more bending strength and are 85% harder than the current after market competitors (Atkins and Hurley).

it doesnt matter, detonation is almost 100 times stonger than normal combustion, it will break anything you put in there

amen

We are using 3mm in all of our turbo engines, they can take a little more abuse. We charge 300.00 for the machining of the rotors, and we use a CNC Mill that is dedicated to just the milling of the rotors, so it is very accurate.

Waste of time...



Milling of apex seal grooves are suspect.

The apex seal grooves need to be proper clearance.

The apex seal grooves need to be at the perfect angle.

Stock apex seal grooves are hardened - are the milled 3mm grooves hardened?



Serious detonation will break 3mm seals almost the same as 2mm seals.



There are tons of big power 2mm apex seal engines out there.



What's the secret?

As everyone else has said, proper fuel and ignition timing (and intercooling) will minimize chances of detonation.





-Ted

Waste of time... Not allways...https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blush.png

Milling of apex seal grooves are suspect.



In some cases Yes, but it is an acceptable builders practice to use 3mm in turbo applications. In some cases the groove maybe out of spec's, if the client is planning to use hi boost and not properly allow the apex seals to seat, or known to to tweek it a little more it can add some benifits



The apex seal grooves need to be proper clearance.



Very True. We list the acceptable clearance on all of our 2mm apex seals as they have the most wear and are susceptable to "mushrooming" at the tips due to the 3 piece style stock apex seal.



The apex seal grooves need to be at the perfect angle.

This is the very reason that we have a dedicated CNC mill for just 3mm processes



Stock apex seal grooves are hardened - are the milled 3mm grooves hardened?

not allways, but most if not all 3rd gens are. Before that I don't recall any that were, any time you change the surface of a hardened surface you will most likely change the degree of hardness. But you should consider the reasons for the hardness, was it because of the 3 piece design that the engineers made the design change? Did it prove effective? they are both questionable.





There are tons of big power 2mm apex seal engines out there.

Very True, we have some of the fastest and most abusive racers out there using our seals. Do they expect long life? Do they plan to change the seals every event? most do change the apex seals every event as 1 hp difference can make the win.



My 2 cents is that there is not an absolute rule to the use of 3mm or not. if the grooves are too beat up, then yes it's the least expensive way to go. If you plan to use new rotors then 2 mm are the way to go. But there is alot of room for the in between, driving styles, fuel styles, turbo or no turbo all add into the equation. Check with your builder to see what they advise, you are spending good money with them and they want you to have the longest life with that rebuild since it shows (in some cases) the quality given to the job and project https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683894.gif

Sorry if this was a little long, but I thought several things should be addressed in more details, and I am not trying to offend anyones position. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.png

Maybe we can get some of the professional engine builders to give their yeas and neas and why since they would have the most experience. I think this is a great discussion, and bringing out good reasons for and opoosed is a way for all of us to learn. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...DIR#>/wink.png

I'm not sold on 3mm although I've used them in the past and will use them again this next go-around on my personal engine. I think what it boils down to is weighing the advantages (stronger seal, more insurance for deadly engine knock) vs the disadvantages (apex seal chatter? less longevity of engine life?).



B

There are a few members of the board currently using these seals, and still testing. I have a set that I have not put in an engine yet. I have seen some good and bad out of a few different seals in some really abused engines. the RA seals aside, I have seen the Adkins seals blow, yet not do damage to the engine the same way a stock 2mm 3 pc seal will. JSpecRaceer has had a Adkins seal explode during tuning, The center of the seal let go, and was alsmost the perfect shape of the exhaust port. When the motor was opened, no damage to any of the major components, no housing scratches, no Iron damage, and no rotor dings. The seal went through the engine and the turbo with no damage... That was a good thing, all the rebuild cost was a O-ring set and the time to break it down, and put it back in. Am I saying this is the best seal out there? No, but it did impress me. Now JSpecRacer is running the RA seals... He has no complaints other than he has a lot more time to play with tuning, because the motor has not blown yet. If you do a search on the Rotary aviation seals there was a member that put them through the test pretty harshly. I read through the test he did, and was extremely surprised at the results, even more surprised when he had called Tracey @ RA and they shipped a new replacement set to him, even after he abused them to the point of failure for the purpose of testing. Dragon and Igy both told me a long time ago that when it comes to playing with the rotary, it is not a question of what caused the engine to blow, nor is it the quality of the products you put in, it is the time you spend tuning it to do what you want it to do. Dragon claims the rotary is 25% engine, and 75% tuning, I beleive it. I am not a profesional engine builder, I am not a super tuner, But I have seen some 13b engines put to the test in some grueling conditions. I have seen what Dragon can do to a front stationary gear. I have seen a motor crack due to an improper corner seal placement, and I have seen some pretty wicked rotors that Igy pulled out of a motor that looked like a person was beating them with a 5 lbs ball peen hammer. The best seal is the seal that does what it is supposed to, and if your running a Half Bridge, or high boost motor, you have to realize that your longevity is going to be lower than a guy running a N/A stock motor. As the saying goes "You have to pay, to play"

I have personally seen a RP race rotor that withstood a serious detonation condition - looked like it was thoroughly beaten w/ a ball peen hammer; the 3mm seals held up.



I have Chris's 2mm stockport in the car and his 3mm streetport on the shelf (It's going in after Rotary Revolution). I've driven cars with that engine and they're unbelievably powerful and durable. Many in our group got burned by the low-buck builders that put out garbage. They wind up paying over double what Chris charges and they still have a dubious engine in some cases by the time it's sorted out. Chris's fee for my engines at $2400 and $3400 respectively are not unreasonable for a stout, powerful, and forgiving engine that is hard to break IMO. As 94Touring says, it's in the tuning. RP and Gotham Racing are the best.

It's true, detonation will break forged pistons with no problem.



But I don't believe most people believe a 3mm seal is invincible. Most are just wondering which one is better. If you were to build an engine and money was not an object, which seal should be used?

Something interesting I discovered: We had a Rotary aviation 2mm seal at the shop that had a damaged corner piece, so we couldn't use it. I decided to mess around with it to see how strong it was. A stock 2mm seal can easily be snaped in half in your hands. I couln't break the RA seal. I also tried hitting it with a hammer and all it did was dent the concrete on our shop floor. Eventually I hit it hard enough and it broke, but it definately seams much stronger than the stock mazda seals. I will be running the RA 3mm seals in my motor that I am building now. From my experiences, mazda 2mm seals offer no forgiveness to pinging or detonation. There is just no room for error. Almost every stock seal 2mm motor that I've poped went at a single ping. In fact it just let go, didn't even hear anything. The last one I thought I heard some pinging earlier in the day when I was driving but I thought the noise was caused by a zip tie rubbing on my fans. It let go later that afternoon when I forgot about the noise I heard earlier and got on it. The 3mm mazda seal motor I had detonated hard at least 2 or 3 times before it popped. This was several years ago when I didn't have much experience, and I thought it was ignition breaking up. I got on it again and it let go. Point being, from my experiences 3mm seals at least are resilient enough to resist a knock or two so you can see there is a problem and correct it.

I was at a shop today that does every single porting to rotary motors that you can think of, including what they called a "J-Port" which can and WILL produce 300hp on just the motor itself. He told me all about 3mm seals, and you're leaving out important things besides milling the rotors.



As we know, the point of the seals is that they're thicker, making them more durable, and therefore capable of higher boost. Ceramic-coated doesn't mean the world, but it helps. Steel would still be your best bet. Unless you're going to get carbon seals which will blow in like 40k, but produce the best hp. Also, the carbon seals, when they go, will not damage the housing..they just kind of disentigrate. LoL.



Besides the actual apex seals though, you've got to know whether or not you want to go 3-piece, 2-piece, or 1-piece. The 3mm steel seals that I saw today were actually 1 piece. That's a custom work that they do. 2-piece steel 3mm is your best bet overall. Besides that, use the spring thingies from an FD. I forget what they're called :P



You want the # for this place? They don't joke around.