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I have been curious about using e-10 fuel (10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline) in a rotary engine. It is a clean burning octane boosting chemical. It gives both performance and enviornmental benefit. I have wondered for a long time why here in the U.S. with the best technology in the world why we don't use an ethanol mix in our gas. Places like brazil have been using it since the 70's, they use 24% in their gas.
This would dramaticially reduce the emissions. Ethanol is renewable since it's derived from sugar containing plants that have been fermented, like corn, wheat, potatoes etc... Ethanol is a high perfomrance cleaning burning substance that definatly should be appearing in your local gas station, especially with the rising prices of gas, hopefully soon. This would be the next logical step since just about any combustion engine can run 10%, but certain modifications to the fuel maps need to be done to run more than taht for older cars. I think this would be perfect for rotary power cars since rotaries are not very resistant to detonation, a higher octane fuel has a much higher threshold and would reduce knocking and pinging, plus you could run more compression or boost with your setup, it's better for the enviornment, it's renewable, and it's cheaper. The only draw back is that is slightly lower mpg by about 2%. Check it out: http://www.drivingethanol.org/ What do you guys think, personally this would be the next logical step before hydrogen. It's an easier step since gasoiline cars can run on it. |
Rotaries are supposed to be able to run on anything, the only problem I see is a 2mpg drop is harder to take when you're only making 5 in the first place https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png
Mark |
No not a 2 mpg a 2% so if you are making 5 mpg you will get 4.9, because .1 is 2% of 5.
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good luck with that.. if it started catching on more than it already has, you'd see oil prices fall down quickly because oil companies would start freakin.
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****, 10% ethanol has been seen sporadically on sale here in Virginia for at least 20 years. It has not been widely available. If I had to venture a guess, it would be that "Big Oil" has put the kibosh on anyone who would dare to threaten the demand for their product, and therefore, their fat profits.
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Where can you get your own ethanol to mix your own? do you need to worry about the gas and ethanol staying in solution with each other? And no, im not buying bottles of vodka or everclear to pour in my tank
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the reason why with all this technology we arent using fuels like that is simple... big oil companies have power. way more power than you can imagine. they will do anything and everything in thier power to not let alternative fuels happen.
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we have ethanol gas here, its doing a number on the older car's fuel lines as they were not intended to be running that fuel, never mind what its doing to the boats
then they gave us that MTBE which was supposed to be good for the enviroment, turns out it was bad for our drinking water, we get our water from underground aquafirs, so they had to stop selling it here. |
haha yeah unless the car is made for it it will eat through all the plastic or rubber parts that the stuff comes into contact with...
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the pumps around my home town have that 10% ethinal **** . there is no performance gain in it at all if anything there is a performance drop and also a slight loss in milege from what i can tell with my rx7 and dodge durango. i live in the emmisions counties so we have no choice in the matter at the pump unless i go out of county to get nonreformulate **** fuel, hell it even smells bad.
do rotaries burn it, yes, is there any gain in performance no! milege HELL NO!!!. just my 2 cent |
****, I forgot that everyone got a drop in fuel economy from that crap
thanks for reminding me https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683358.gif |
Originally Posted by 86fc3sMatt' post='774262' date='Oct 31 2005, 03:09 PM
the reason why with all this technology we arent using fuels like that is simple... big oil companies have power. way more power than you can imagine. they will do anything and everything in thier power to not let alternative fuels happen. Yes, I see it's true! Big oil has paid rob and spiff and fc3sboy to badmouth ethanol on this forum! |
E10 is all I can get, Car seens to like it, but 10% isn't alot.
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afaik in NY theres 10% ethanol
i thought it was supposed to increase mileage? |
It won't increase miliage will decrease, but hey if there is any water in your fuel system it will dry it up https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png I had read somewhere that it might break up some particle build up and clog fuel filters, but a lot of places have been running ethanol in gas for some time, I know washington state did.
The water removers you buy and some of the octane boosters are just ethanol. |
I have only ever known 10%. Actually, one station in town has a new option of new gas thats like over 50% ethanol, i wanna say at least 80 but i could be wrong. There are like no cars that can run it i don't think but it is about 20 cents cheaper. I'm not in my home town much anymore so i will pay attention to what it is next time i go
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I have spoken to a couple chemists and there is no way that ethanol would drop performance, gas mileage is true, but there is a major benefit as far as higher octane, plus the drop is only 2% to run 100+ octane. How many of us run crazy ports for power, that dramaticially drop mpg? And you wanna bitch about 2% mpg loss? What if you could just run more boost or compression instead of running such a big port.
It is true in the higher mixes it will damage cars not equipt for it, which is why there are only a couple flexible fuel cars out right now. Most cars will not run well on like an e-85 mix, but e-10 is decent. I am not sure exactly how much it raises octane, but I will find out. I actually went to a station here in san diego that carries it, it doesn't smell too good, I have to admit, but I can just feel my car just feels smoother with the higher octane. Ethanol is a good and viable fuel, but like others have posted, our glorious u.s. of a will not allow such a thing as more effective alternate fuels replace petroleum, we simply, or should I say, they simply make too much bloody money. If I had the money I would open up a chain of ethanol stations around the country, no matter how hard they try to stop it, the energy revolution will occur. Much greater energies will be availible in the future but ethanol is a good start, then maybe eventually something like zero point energy will finally be accepted, since the technology does exist. People like Nikola Tesla have been talking about it for years, he invented alternating current, but yet he is in no school text books, why is that, because he was an eccentric futurist. He would be the richest man alive, he would make bill gates look like oliver twist. Ethanol is a good start, since our current engineering designes for combustion are still valid, possibly later on hydrogen can be adapted and then the sky is the limit from there. A lof of tuners feel that more enviornmentally friendly means less performance, not true at all. They make ridiculous cars like the honda hybrid and prius to keep people away from the idea that better for the envionrment means less performance, bullshit. We are being hypnotized by the mass media. Do some research on alternative fuels and energy and you will be shocked and disturbed how much you have been lied to. I am an engineering major at ucsd and many of my professors have been telling me the same thing, don't believe the hype, get self-educated. |
Originally Posted by Epitrochoid' post='774435' date='Nov 1 2005, 02:16 AM
I have spoken to a couple chemists and there is no way that ethanol would drop performance, gas mileage is true, but there is a major benefit as far as higher octane, plus the drop is only 2% to run 100+ octane. How many of us run crazy ports for power, that dramaticially drop mpg? And you wanna bitch about 2% mpg loss? What if you could just run more boost or compression instead of running such a big port. It is true in the higher mixes it will damage cars not equipt for it, which is why there are only a couple flexible fuel cars out right now. Most cars will not run well on like an e-85 mix, but e-10 is decent. I am not sure exactly how much it raises octane, but I will find out. I actually went to a station here in san diego that carries it, it doesn't smell too good, I have to admit, but I can just feel my car just feels smoother with the higher octane. Ethanol is a good and viable fuel, but like others have posted, our glorious u.s. of a will not allow such a thing as more effective alternate fuels replace petroleum, we simply, or should I say, they simply make too much bloody money. If I had the money I would open up a chain of ethanol stations around the country, no matter how hard they try to stop it, the energy revolution will occur. Much greater energies will be availible in the future but ethanol is a good start, then maybe eventually something like zero point energy will finally be accepted, since the technology does exist. People like Nikola Tesla have been talking about it for years, he invented alternating current, but yet he is in no school text books, why is that, because he was an eccentric futurist. He would be the richest man alive, he would make bill gates look like oliver twist. Ethanol is a good start, since our current engineering designes for combustion are still valid, possibly later on hydrogen can be adapted and then the sky is the limit from there. A lof of tuners feel that more enviornmentally friendly means less performance, not true at all. They make ridiculous cars like the honda hybrid and prius to keep people away from the idea that better for the envionrment means less performance, bullshit. We are being hypnotized by the mass media. Do some research on alternative fuels and energy and you will be shocked and disturbed how much you have been lied to. I am an engineering major at ucsd and many of my professors have been telling me the same thing, don't believe the hype, get self-educated. A couple of my friends are going to Rolla for engineering but have talked about getting into hyrdogen engines. |
corn squeezins....gonna by me some corn fields.one acre per gal?
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Originally Posted by NoeVuh' post='774429' date='Nov 1 2005, 02:01 AM
I have only ever known 10%. Actually, one station in town has a new option of new gas thats like over 50% ethanol, i wanna say at least 80 but i could be wrong. There are like no cars that can run it i don't think but it is about 20 cents cheaper. I'm not in my home town much anymore so i will pay attention to what it is next time i go
Its prolly e85, which is 85% ethanol, but you should have a car designed to run that kind of fuel to use e85 |
Originally Posted by phinsup' post='774489' date='Nov 1 2005, 11:28 AM
Its prolly e85, which is 85% ethanol, but you should have a car designed to run that kind of fuel to use e85 Well i sent an email to mazda when it first came out and im pretty sure they said it was not a good idea. I will have to see if i can find it and see what they said. |
If I remember correctly, I heard there was a situation in Europe where the warrenties offered by major car manufacturers withdrew their warrenty on cars that ran ethanol mixtures because it was causing havoc with the injectors... blah blah blah?
I dunno, maybe someone else would have a better idea of what I am referring to. |
I believe that in the future rotary engines will get more popular. The reason being is that the rotary engine is the most ideal combustion engine for a hydrogen setup. Piston engines usually back fire on hydrogen fuel, it is hard to get a good stoich running hydrogen on a piston engine.
http://media.ford.com/mazda/article_displa...rticle_id=17134 The mazda RX-8 dual-fuel H2RE prototype can run on either gas or hydrogen. This is going to be the performance car of the future. I wonder if you can run a turbo with hydrogen, the exhaust will be mainly water vapor, they would need to have stainless steel parts to prevent rusting in the turbo, but it will need to be an alloy with another metal with a higher melting point. Even though hydrogen combustion would yield considerably less btu's, stainless steel unless forged or reinforced would probably melt or warp at best. Another good point about hydrogen like I said earlier is that it burns much cooler which will reduce the heat soak threat that rotary engine encounter with a traditional gasoline setup. I love rotary powered cars, now all mazda needs to do is design a lighter chassis, the rx-8 is a pig. If the car weight like 25-2600 lbs it would be decent. It will be interesting, but of course this is just speculation, if the greedy petroleum companies can release their death grip on technology. My only complaint with hydrogen, is the lack of performance, ethanol unlike hydrogen increases performance while reducing emissions, but it's not as clean as hydrogen. The rx-8 dual fuel only makes 120hp, which really sucks considering the weight of the hydrogen model will be even heavier than the conventional model. Hydrogen is cool, but for now ethanol is reasonable and much cleaner, and funner. |
Mazda actually blamed the 10% ethanol fuel as one of the reasons for the poor fuel economy on my Mazda 6
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yeah, I dunno where you get this ethanol performance and mileage increasing crap, but it doesn't help my mileage.. All gas around here is oxygenated with 10% ethanol and it's not fun.
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See below
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If you read any of my previous posts, I never said it increases mpg, it DECREASES mpg by 2%. It does how ever raise the threshold for more performance.
If you don't beleive me that is fine, but it's pure chemistry, ethanol is much higher octane than regular unleaded fuel. If you have any basic knowledge of chemistry you would see that. If the fuel is oxygenated, hmm, doesn't combustion involve oxygen!? Petroleum fuel is out dated, and has been so for atl east 50+ years. You can keep running regular fuel, whilst the rest of us enjoy 100+ octane, and you can tell us then that higher octane reduces performance, right? And about Mazda saying that ethanol is what kils the mpg on the 6, remember that they also said that synthetic is bad for rotaries, right. How many of us run synthetics? When ever something new comes along, it's always ridiculed first, then accepted. |
higher octane CAN decrease performance
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they would need to have stainless steel parts to prevent rusting in the turbo, but it will need to be an alloy with another metal with a higher melting point. Even though hydrogen combustion would yield considerably less btu's, stainless steel unless forged or reinforced would probably melt or warp at best.
Stainless melts at a higher point than regular carbon steel, and shouldnt distort that much as long as austenitic stainless isnt used, but this is just coming from a book, which will be proved wrong next post. |
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You are right, I wasn't sure, but when I looked up the specific melting point for stainless steel, it should tolerate it. As far as octane reducing performance, can you give a little more info, I am not to keen on what you are talking.
I have personally never heard of higher octane reducing performance, but it might be possible. Can you please elaborate? |
Octane is just for detonation resistance, it says nothing for the petrols performance.
Mark |
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