rotoblock

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/dunno.gif

dial-up pwn3d.



sounds cool, though.



I'm still stoked about this.

Looks like a lot of oddly moving parts with seals galore, however it isn't water cooled either.



Wasn't the Rotary designed specifically with Reliability in mind, and that's it's last attribute? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.png https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif



If this works, I'll buy 4!

-Jim Downing, four Time Camel GT Champion and Co-Developer / Tester of the HANS device.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 1 2005, 07:49 AM']Looks like a lot of oddly moving parts with seals galore, however it isn't water cooled either.



Wasn't the Rotary designed specifically with Reliability in mind, and that's it's last attribute? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.png https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif



If this works, I'll buy 4!


[/quote]



The rotary motor was orginally designed as a higher out put grease pump.



On a humorous note the The wnakel foundation is one of the leaders in enviromentilism, yet the rotary is a dirty ass burning motor.

Well, the Mazda engines are.



As for piston engines, I think the Bourke engine is pretty cool. It actually benefits from detonation and makes more power because of it. Or something like that. http://bourke-engine.com/

All this talk of other motors makes Dr Otto pissed

The whole intake/exaust side looks pretty messy - to have the whole block spinning just so you can have intake and exhaust seems a bit backwards, but on the other hand it makes air cooling a far better proposition. There's a big difference between a radical new engine and a radical new engine that works better than what we already have.



Mark

Back to reciprocating PISTONS.



Oiling the piston rings must have been a challenge - probably uses premix.

They don't show it, but the scotch yokes & the cylinder positioning gear are probably enclosed in a crankcase.



Ya gotta know those yokes are gonna get hot.



The side ports remind me of a Sterling engine.

the rotary is a very reliable motor, as long as its not in a 3rd gen.



lost of endurance racers dont need to rebuild their engine after every race, unlike the piston engine guys who tear it down after every race. probably another reason its banned, too easy.



kevin.

[quote name='teknics' date='Jul 1 2005, 11:16 PM']the rotary is a very reliable motor, as long as its not in a 3rd gen.



lost of endurance racers dont need to rebuild their engine after every race, unlike the piston engine guys who tear it down after every race. probably another reason its banned, too easy.



kevin.


[/quote]

Exactly! They said the 787b that won the Le Mans could have done another 24 hours.



The only piston engines that come close to rotaries are 170bhp/litre bike engines which start to deteriorate at 50k miles - 10 year rotaries have been making lots more than that and are still running strong.



Mark

[quote name='inanimate_object' date='Jul 2 2005, 06:27 AM']Exactly! They said the 787b that won the Le Mans could have done another 24 hours.



The only piston engines that come close to rotaries are 170bhp/litre bike engines which start to deteriorate at 50k miles - 10 year rotaries have been making lots more than that and are still running strong.



Mark


[/quote]



yea everyone says "oh the reliability sucks" yea, if you beat the **** out of it.



Also i like the rotary valve camshaft thingy they designed for piston engines, i forget who made it.



kevin.

[quote name='inanimate_object' date='Jul 2 2005, 07:27 AM']Exactly! They said the 787b that won the Le Mans could have done another 24 hours.




[/quote]



That reliability point is mute for us normal folk.



787b motor is NA. The only easily accessible NA Rotary motor we have are the 12a, 13b, and Renesis, all making "Sub-par" Horsepower unless introduced to FI. Once FI is there to make up for the lack of 2 more rotor's, reliability drops....

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 2 2005, 01:14 PM']That reliability point is mute for us normal folk.



787b motor is NA. The only easily accessible NA Rotary motor we have are the 12a, 13b, and Renesis, all making "Sub-par" Horsepower unless introduced to FI. Once FI is there to make up for the lack of 2 more rotor's, reliability drops....


[/quote]





no, if you dont abuse the FI, its all good. Its when we push the envelope that **** pops.



kevin.

[quote name='teknics' date='Jul 1 2005, 05:16 PM']the rotary is a very reliable motor, as long as its not in a 3rd gen.



lost of endurance racers dont need to rebuild their engine after every race, unlike the piston engine guys who tear it down after every race. probably another reason its banned, too easy.



kevin.


[/quote]





oh really? not my enduro motors. 62 hour inbetween rebuilds 750hp chevy. touche



judd v8 and v10 go for 45 hours before needing a simple freshining (rings bearings, seals)

[quote name='teknics' date='Jul 2 2005, 03:31 PM']no, if you dont abuse the FI, its all good. Its when we push the envelope that **** pops.



kevin.


[/quote]



So if I mod my 13b conservatively, but still push high HP, I can yield near 200k out of a 13b? My point was about HP (which creates more heat/stress, the more the worse-off for a rotary)



Just never happens, coolant seals are bound to go with any turbo setup at some point in time before anything stupendous mileage wise...*shrug* eh?

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 3 2005, 07:09 AM']So if I mod my 13b conservatively, but still push high HP, I can yield near 200k out of a 13b? My point was about HP (which creates more heat/stress, the more the worse-off for a rotary)



Just never happens, coolant seals are bound to go with any turbo setup at some point in time before anything stupendous mileage wise...*shrug* eh?


[/quote]



whatever you wanna believe, god.



kevin.

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 3 2005, 04:09 AM']So if I mod my 13b conservatively, but still push high HP, I can yield near 200k out of a 13b? My point was about HP (which creates more heat/stress, the more the worse-off for a rotary)



Just never happens, coolant seals are bound to go with any turbo setup at some point in time before anything stupendous mileage wise...*shrug* eh?


[/quote]



actually most rotaries live on a time clock, they seem to go for 6-8 years, the 1st gens did, the turbo cars did etc etc. the exceptions are the gsl-se's and the na fc's

Mazdee's runs their engines for a season not for a race.

[quote name='teknics' date='Jul 5 2005, 04:13 PM']whatever you wanna believe, god.



kevin.


[/quote]



Exactly. No arguement there. High HP Rotary due to FI=Short life.



High HP due to displacement=Awesome. Practical, obtainable, sensible? Not at all.

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 5 2005, 10:49 PM']Exactly. No arguement there. High HP Rotary due to FI=Short life.






[/quote]





No. Short life = ignorant owners. Its universal. I know more people that have blown the engines in n/a hondas than in n/a RX7's.



What youre mising is the correlation between hp and heat. If youre doubling the hp of the car, you are doubling the amount of heat the engine will have remove to keep the engine at it ideal temperature. But just how many 450 rwhp FD's have the cooling capacity doubled? Fluidine radiator? Sure, its better than stock, but its far from doubling the amount of heat the cooling system can take out of the block.

what you are missing is my first fc a 90 s5 na died with 311,??? miles on it no piston motor can do that and even in no turbo conf it made 120hp out of a 1.3 lt so it made on avarage 90 hp per liter so a chevy 350 would have to make approx 535 hp to compare to size/power of a rotary. The last 500 +hp small block that I saw did not last antwhere near 300,000 miles it was lucky if it got a tenth of that.



my philospy could be flaued becouse drinmks are involved

[quote name='mazdaspeed7' date='Jul 6 2005, 01:14 AM']No. Short life = ignorant owners. Its universal. I know more people that have blown the engines in n/a hondas than in n/a RX7's.



What youre mising is the correlation between hp and heat. If youre doubling the hp of the car, you are doubling the amount of heat the engine will have remove to keep the engine at it ideal temperature. But just how many 450 rwhp FD's have the cooling capacity doubled? Fluidine radiator? Sure, its better than stock, but its far from doubling the amount of heat the cooling system can take out of the block.


[/quote]



How can you double it's capacity? You can do a V-mount with a big radiator, fans on high all of the time, proper ducting, coolant flushes, vented hood, and people will still report high/hot temperatures.



Also, as perfect as anyone sets up a high HP FD, problems still happen. Things fail all the time, but for a rotary, one spike or failure is one too much.



Man, this thread is making me look like a Rotary hater...:P

[quote name='sexycheerleader' date='Jul 6 2005, 02:59 AM']what you are missing is my first fc a 90 s5 na died with 311,??? miles on it no piston motor can do that and even in no turbo conf it made 120hp out of a 1.3 lt so it made on avarage 90 hp per liter so a chevy 350 would have to make approx 535 hp to compare to size/power of a rotary. The last 500 +hp small block that I saw did not last antwhere near 300,000 miles it was lucky if it got a tenth of that.



my philospy could be flaued becouse drinmks are involved


[/quote]



We've already discussed this. Your S5 NA lasted forever because it was NA, and as cool as 165hp is out of a 1.3litre motor, it's still only 165hp.

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 6 2005, 10:33 AM']How can you double it's capacity? You can do a V-mount with a big radiator, fans on high all of the time, proper ducting, coolant flushes, vented hood, and people will still report high/hot temperatures.


[/quote]



Like many others, you are completely overlooking the point that almost half of the rorary engine's cooling is through the oil.



Big oil coolers make a huge difference in cooling capacity.

[quote name='sureshot' date='Jul 6 2005, 10:43 AM']Like many others, you are completely overlooking the point that almost half of the rorary engine's cooling is through the oil.



Big oil coolers make a huge difference in cooling capacity.


[/quote]



I wouldn't count that out, that all of those speaking about said issues were only running one stock oil cooler...



But, like you, I have tried to be a skeptic with anyone posting problems, but I've talked to enough guys that knew what they were doing to make certain conclusions. And I believe, to the other extent, as you could agree: there's not much room for error.

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 6 2005, 10:49 AM']I wouldn't count that out, that all of those speaking about said issues were only running one stock oil cooler...



But, like you, I have tried to be a skeptic with anyone posting problems, but I've talked to enough guys that knew what they were doing to make certain conclusions. And I believe, to the other extent, as you could agree: there's not much room for error.


[/quote]



I agree, there is very little room for error.



[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 6 2005, 10:33 AM']How can you double it's capacity? You can do a V-mount with a big radiator, fans on high all of the time, proper ducting, coolant flushes, vented hood, and people will still report high/hot temperatures.



Also, as perfect as anyone sets up a high HP FD, problems still happen. Things fail all the time, but for a rotary, one spike or failure is one too much.



Man, this thread is making me look like a Rotary hater...:P


[/quote]



I hardly consider a v-mount a good solution. Laying the radiator down that much, especially with the air exiting below is far from ideal for airflow through the radiator.

But even still, you answered your own question. All that stuff you listed is STILL NOT ENOUGH cooling for the hp they are running.



Dont bitch about reliability when the complete lack thereof is due to the choice of mods. Skimping on the details and trying to make more hp than your cooling system is capable of handling is a recipe for disaster, whether it has rotors or pistons.

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 6 2005, 07:49 AM']I wouldn't count that out, that all of those speaking about said issues were only running one stock oil cooler...



But, like you, I have tried to be a skeptic with anyone posting problems, but I've talked to enough guys that knew what they were doing to make certain conclusions. And I believe, to the other extent, as you could agree: there's not much room for error.


[/quote]

your retarded.

[quote name='mazdaspeed7' date='Jul 6 2005, 11:38 AM']

Dont bitch about reliability when the complete lack thereof is due to the choice of mods. Skimping on the details and trying to make more hp than your cooling system is capable of handling is a recipe for disaster, whether it has rotors or pistons.


[/quote]



Okay, but what other cooling solution is there? I am asking you for your answer.



It is my observation that even when all bases are covered, there's still a lot of heat generated because such a small motor is trying to output so much power in one ever-revolving system...



If radiator size, placement, coolant flushes, fan switch, ductwork, oil coolers, lines and caps are all taken care of, what more can you do? Drive at the track with the hood off? What more is there?

I THOUGHT THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT CRAZY ENGINES LIKE THE ROTOBLOCK THINGAMAJIGGER AND THE BEARE SIX-STROKE NOT YOU ******* LITTLE CUNTCASKET'S CEASELESS BICKERING ABOUT HOW LONG YOUR WANKEL WILL LAST

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 6 2005, 11:56 AM']Okay, but what other cooling solution is there? I am asking you for your answer.



It is my observation that even when all bases are covered, there's still a lot of heat generated because such a small motor is trying to output so much power in one ever-revolving system...



If radiator size, placement, coolant flushes, fan switch, ductwork, oil coolers, lines and caps are all taken care of, what more can you do? Drive at the track with the hood off? What more is there?


[/quote]





Simple answer. Those "bases" are not covered adequately. Just because its aftermarket and supposed to be better than stock, doesnt mean its the end-all. It just raises the limits somewhat higher than stock. And in this case, not enough higher than stock for many people. Theres likely not a bolt on solution that adequate cools a rotary capable of the power people are seeing with a big single. The nature of a rotary makes it waste a lot more heat through the cooling system than a piston engine, because of the long, wide, and thin combustion chamber. There is a high ratio of surface area to volume, much higher than anything with pistons.

[quote name='mazdaspeed7' date='Jul 6 2005, 02:10 PM']Simple answer. Those "bases" are not covered adequately. Just because its aftermarket and supposed to be better than stock, doesnt mean its the end-all. It just raises the limits somewhat higher than stock. And in this case, not enough higher than stock for many people. Theres likely not a bolt on solution that adequate cools a rotary capable of the power people are seeing with a big single. The nature of a rotary makes it waste a lot more heat through the cooling system than a piston engine, because of the long, wide, and thin combustion chamber. There is a high ratio of surface area to volume, much higher than anything with pistons.


[/quote]



LOL Is it me or have you not offered a solution yet? Still saying that replacing parts doesn't solve it, and that any ducting, refreshing/replacing, fans/vents combination won't save it either....so then what will?



Regardless, I think there's some that have found middle ground where perhaps a few laps of fun just need to be followed by a few calmer laps. Unfortunately, I am nowhere near the powerband or experience to be able to test such things...only in that in August I may be track'in my Stock-ish FD, but that won't account for much.

[quote name='jackboots' date='Jul 6 2005, 01:27 PM']IM GAY AND VI HAVESZ BAD TEETH


[/quote]



Huh?

[quote name='PheenuxDownSyndromeVIIVIVVVIIIVIVVIIIII' date='Jul 6 2005, 02:01 PM']I liek shiny pantses and teh rape time on my bunshole.


[/quote]

[quote name='PhoenixDownVII' date='Jul 6 2005, 04:01 PM']LOL Is it me or have you not offered a solution yet? Still saying that replacing parts doesn't solve it, and that any ducting, refreshing/replacing, fans/vents combination won't save it either....so then what will?



Regardless, I think there's some that have found middle ground where perhaps a few laps of fun just need to be followed by a few calmer laps. Unfortunately, I am nowhere near the powerband or experience to be able to test such things...only in that in August I may be track'in my Stock-ish FD, but that won't account for much.


[/quote]





Im not looking to offer you a solution, merely to have you understand the nature of the problem that you bitch about so much. Its not a design flaw that makes FD's unreliable, its an owners flaw.

to offer a solution buy a oil temp gauge a water temp gauge and a ext temp gauge and study which one raises first. It is usually the oil. The stock 2nd gen cooler is good for about 250 hp driven hard after that my by and I go with bigger alomost twice the size oil coolers. A good ron davis radiator with electric fans tied in to a relay actaviated by the haltech becouse running the fan all the time fucks you. it only needs to run a certain temps below 35 mph.



When usng aftermarket parts you could use apc but stock is better. The best solution is to buy quality pars from reputable dealers and find someone that has a system that works and do that.

Ef it.