I am going to break down and learn the fuel injection systems so I can install one on the race car.



The Megasquirt kit looks to be the cheapest. The Kinsler mechanical constant flow looks to be the easy one to learn. No electricity. Works like the Continental airplane dribble injection.



Has anyone built and run the Megasquirt kit. Any comments on programming or performance?



It would be mostly WOT between 8,000 and 9,800 RPM. Idle and RPM below 8,000 wouldn't matter much.



Any suggestions for a cheap system?



Thank you.



Lynn E. Hanover

I started one, but have not finished it yet. You NEED

err... supid enter key.... Here's what I ment to say



I started one, but have not finished it yet. You NEED to have a very good sodering pencil, and be careful. I blew my LM2937ET (it's a voltage regulator) when I started using a crappy radioshack sodering pencil. I went on ebay and got a pace sodering pencil. It works great.



You are gonna wanna start with the simulator, it's the hardest to mess up.



There are lots of people (like 10) currently using them in 1st gen's, I have an 86 that I am going to try it with. I got the hud too, I put it together, and it works so far, and looks cool too. I also opted for the extra box under the hood, so my re-wiring is easier.

Lynn,



I drop by these forums now and again, and noticed your post. I find your posts a 'must-read', and really appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences.



I've been running MS on my 13B for a couple years now, and am pleased with the system. I can see no issues with the specs you've provided, although the rpm range is above what I've explored. Some guys with bike engines are running the MS up over 12k, so your rpm range should be no problem. There is some info on a rotary-specific page here:



http://www.megasquirt.info/manual/rotary.htm



The rest of that site is great as well. I doubt you'd find better documentation anywhere. If you proceed with the project, drop by msefi.com, which is the main support forum. The signal-to-noise ratio is pretty high there, with lots of neat new developments in the works.



Cheers,

Roger.

Well, thank you for that.



I just read that and it is not all that hard to understand.



Now if I can just movethis whole mess to a new house 30 miles away, sell this one, get the car patched up from last year, and get ready for 05, I can build me a Megasquirt and give it a try. TWM has some killer looking short horns in carbon fibre that I would love to try.





Lynn E. Hanover

Lynn, Adam (mazdaspeed7) runs one.

ColinRX7 built one too. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.png

Ive been very happy with mine. There is one drivability glitch Ive noticed in day to day driving that I cant get around, other than adjusting my driving style. There is a light bucking below 2500 rpm on decel. In the higher rpm ranges, I had the decel range tuned much leaner than the rest of the map to keep it smooth on decel. But as the engine gets closer to idle, the map values go up to the idle values, at which point my car had to be tuned rich to run smoothly. So the transition from lean decel to rich idle caused a light bucking.



Other than that, Ive had perfect reliability, and its very easy to tune. I had a base map from Roger Enns up and running on my ported engine in 30 minutes, and tuned to a drivable state in another 30. That was with no prior experience tuning. I spent a lot of time tuning for drivability, and especially the warm-up enrichment.



My car saw 9500-9700 rpm on a regular basis with the MS installed, and never once had a problem.



My current project is 2 MS boards run in parallel. Sequential injection on the primaries on the first board, and secondaries and mapped water injection on the second board(using dual table code), and each controlling a ford EDIS box for full ignition control. And a wideband O2 thrown in for fun.

that light bucking is hard to tune out without a decel fuel cut, even with the "real" ems systems

I know. I think its almost something that needs to be designed into the EMS to deal with it.



Even the decel fuel cut wasnt helping on the MS, b/c its time based. And on top of that, any tuning that would make the car smoother in that low rpm range would cause a big stumble on WOT shifts.

Anyone else have experience with the Megasquirt? I just started looking at these. Might have saved a bit of money over the Haltech I bought last year. The Haltech is doing fine, though. If I could just find a few minutes to get the high rpm WOT maps down out of the 9.x AFR numbers. I think I could be a little faster if I was leaner. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif

i have no experience with megasquirt. but i do know a certain car running custom everything with a haltech e6k that works great and he normally drives the car 6k-9500 rpm all day long because he is a maniac

[quote name='vosko' date='Aug 3 2005, 12:26 PM']i have no experience with megasquirt. but i do know a certain car running custom everything with a haltech e6k that works great and he normally drives the car 6k-9500 rpm all day long because he is a maniac


[/quote]





That's neat



So what's it have to do with the megasquirt again?











My megasquirt will run my peripheral port engine... I drove it around as a daily driver for about 6 months on a stock port S4 6 port engine with custom manifolds, never had a single problem with it.

I run a Megasquirt on my 1st gen. I love it. Runs far better than stock. of course there are many reasons for that.

Well if your just looking to learn some simple EFI for cheap Megasquirt is a good option, Microtech also makes some cheap boxes.

You do get what you pay for as far as price range though.



There is a reason that a Autronic or Electromotive box costs triple what a Microtech flying lead does, but as I'm sure you know it depends on what your needs and budget are.

MS is now getting to the point where there is a critical mass of users with rotaries to help support people. It's never going to be totally pain free (It's a DIY project), but it gets better with each code iteration.



Now that some people have picked up on the igntion code development it won't be long before there are most of the options that are needed for 90% of people. For the other 10% they will either have to be patient or start learning to code in C :-)



For your application it should not be too hard to get up and running. If you can let myself or Roger have a dyno plot we can probably knock up a WOT map and work out injector sizing for you.

[quote name='mazdaspeed7' date='Jan 6 2005, 06:01 PM']I know. I think its almost something that needs to be designed into the EMS to deal with it.



Even the decel fuel cut wasnt helping on the MS, b/c its time based. And on top of that, any tuning that would make the car smoother in that low rpm range would cause a big stumble on WOT shifts.


[/quote]

This sounds like a transient throttle issue more than a decel fuel-cut issue?

Sounds like you need a full 2D transient throttle function - Haltech E11 can do this. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png





-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/

But with the haltech you do not have access to the source code to add you own function. That's the real joy. When a problem is found the code can be changed to meet the challenge. And as there are code monkeys with no spanner skills and spanner monkeys with no code skills (and a few with both skills) the mutual bartering that takes place brings people together and makes friends in a way no Haltech can.



Interestingly a lot of the issues with transients can be cured by using mapdot as well as tpsdot in the calculations. A few people I know have abandoned TPS all together.

Update:



http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=9982



2D enrichment is now being tested. Once done on accel, decel is easy to add. Don't you just love open source :-)

So you still use the stock CAS? I am really considering this now.



What, if anything, do you need for the rotary engine?

[quote name='jefraney' date='Aug 10 2005, 07:33 AM']So you still use the stock CAS? I am really considering this now.



What, if anything, do you need for the rotary engine?


[/quote]



Either the FD CAS or the second gen CAS can be used. With the 2nd gen (12+1) configuration you need a few extra bits of circuitry, either on proto board or small runs of a daughterboard have been done by a few people.



Search on www.msefi.com. Things are really hotting up there on the rotary front at the moment as a rotary owning programmer has got on board and taken over from the feeble efforts of us hackers.

Sounds good. I will check it out.

[quote name='bill shurvinton' date='Aug 8 2005, 02:16 PM']But with the haltech you do not have access to the source code to add you own function. That's the real joy. When a problem is found the code can be changed to meet the challenge. And as there are code monkeys with no spanner skills and spanner monkeys with no code skills (and a few with both skills) the mutual bartering that takes place brings people together and makes friends in a way no Haltech can.


[/quote]

Sorry, but in my position, I cannot wait will MS establishes itself to be a "force to be reckoned with".

I have customers I support, and to give them an excuse like "wait till the code is rewritten to solve that problem" just doesn't cut it.

I don't have to time to buy "kits" and build them myself.

I don't have time to take care of it myself, as I'm working 16 hours a day - 80 hours weeks.

I like to support a company a believe in and builds good products with support.

This is what Haltech offers me at this point in time.



MS offers a very economical option, but don't kid yourself - it is not a direct competitor to Haltech / Microtech / Autronic / MoTeC...yet.





-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/

[quote name='RETed' date='Aug 11 2005, 12:40 AM']Sorry, but in my position, I cannot wait will MS establishes itself to be a "force to be reckoned with".

I have customers I support, and to give them an excuse like "wait till the code is rewritten to solve that problem" just doesn't cut it.

I don't have to time to buy "kits" and build them myself.

I don't have time to take care of it myself, as I'm working 16 hours a day - 80 hours weeks.

I like to support a company a believe in and builds good products with support.

This is what Haltech offers me at this point in time.



MS offers a very economical option, but don't kid yourself - it is not a direct competitor to Haltech / Microtech / Autronic / MoTeC...yet.

-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/


[/quote]



But once again you are completely missing the point. You are after a unit to sell to customers. This thread is about whether MS is a good unit to learn about EFI on; the answer to which is an emphatic yes. It is a DIY project to help people learn and to develop the sort of EFI systems people want for their projects. You are expected to put some effort in. It is not intended as a competitor to units that cost 5 times as much, even though it may offer more functionality before too long.



Looking on the Haltech forums there seems to be as much waiting for new code as with any other ECU, so other than an 8 year head start on the codebase I'm not sure that is even a valid argument.



With the 13B MS is very close to the critical mass of installs where it really blossoms, but is for people who work on their cars, not people who go cheque book racing and just pay a speed shop to do it all.

I'm with Bill on his logic





FYI, renns has been tinkering with a stock CAS to run ignition, and he has code in his MS controller that runs the spark advance/retard, and has full control over. You can use ANY signal to modify the timing and fuel delivery, all you have to do is add lines of code..





Sure, the MS doesn't work for YOU, Ted, because you don't have the skills that the MS community requires to effectively utilize the unit..



I guess the only way you will consider it a force to be reckoned with is when either a spanner monkey or a code monkey blows you out of the water with the exponential flexability of the MS unit over ANY haltec unit





You can wait for haltec to develop code for you to do cool ****, or you can get your hands dirty with an MS and make it happen yourself, and at the same time, you're writing the code for YOUR specific application, and you don't have to stick within the boundaries of the code developed for the mass public via haltec

Just to clarify, I haven't been doing any of the code work. My bench-testing has only been to offer feedback to James, and recently Ken, as they are the ones doing the programming. The results of this testing, and the related development work is all nicely documented in the rotary ignition thread over on msefi.com, now up to 12 pages long...



http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=7544



It is ready for in-vehicle testing now. I'd run it myself, but my EDIS-based ignition has been trouble-free so I'll leave that work to someone else. Colin, if you could keep an engine together long enough, we could set it up in your car ;-).



Roger.

[quote name='ColinRX7' date='Aug 11 2005, 02:32 PM']Sure, the MS doesn't work for YOU, Ted, because you don't have the skills that the MS community requires to effectively utilize the unit..[/quote]

WTF is your problem?

This is a flat-out insult if I ever saw one - I thought that **** wasn't supposed to happen on here anymore?



You don't know anything about me.

I'm an "amatuer" EE, and I got into my 3rd year of CS, even passing my assembly course no problem.



I don't have the skills?

Oh puhlease...





I think you're overestimating the potential of the MS.

Right now, unless there's a way to expand the map size, it's way too small.

All I want the ECU to do is competently handle fuel and ignition.

Haltech does have it's disadvantages (no load and RPM staging), but it's still workable.

God, you sound those LINUX prophets who keep claiming LINUX is going to take over the world...



Sure, I would love to get dirty with the code to make all the things I want fixed, but - see below - I don't have the time.





I guess you didn't understand my point.

I don't have the time to hack away at this ****.





-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/

ok get back on topic before i clean this BS up

Excuse my wording.. I meant time to apply the skills you have.. Reread my statement with TIME TO APPLY and it should make more sense... My appologies



Everybody has different levels of skill, I have to keep speaking with renns everytime I have a problem.. You don't have time to apply any level of skill considering theres no customer support, its just open source.. You can't afford any risks, right? I wasn't trying to insult you.. If I was, I wouldn't hide behind indirect comments, I'd just tell you that I think you're an idiot.. See how easy it was? Relax Ted..



I understood your standpoint completely, but just because it's not within your scope of application doesn't mean it doesn't deserve any credit

As of this moment, the MS is not in the same category as the Microtech / Haltech / Autronic.

I dunno why people like to compare them like apples-to-apples. :P



What we need is someone to start offering MS kits for the RX-7's and see what the pricing comes out to be???



Some eBay seller is selling them for other cars, and they are asking $500 for it!



I think the price is going to push closer to $1,000 once you get everything squared away...



Right now, it's all talk.

I understand your point about having it open-source and the capabilites are limitless, but the fact of the matter is...there is no such thing, especially with electronics.

You might think you can add a bazillion things to it, but there comes a point where the uP gets too loaded to handle all that processing...unless you go faster uP, which means more money.



I'm NOT knocking the MS - get that straight.

I'm just waiting on the sidelines to see if MS can develop into something what all of you guys are bragging about.

There are very few people that are doing the "grunt work in the trenches"; I've done that kinda stuff before, and it's tedious and boring.

Is there anyone that's contributing to the open-source development of the MS for 13B applications on here???





-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/

[quote name='mazdaspeed7' date='Jan 6 2005, 06:01 PM']I know. I think its almost something that needs to be designed into the EMS to deal with it.



Even the decel fuel cut wasnt helping on the MS, b/c its time based. And on top of that, any tuning that would make the car smoother in that low rpm range would cause a big stumble on WOT shifts.


[/quote]



as an aside, the stock ecus do a staged fuel cut, sometimes its only cutting 1 rotor on decel.

[quote name='RETed' date='Aug 13 2005, 03:46 AM']Is there anyone that's contributing to the open-source development of the MS for 13B applications on here???

-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/


[/quote]



If anyone wants copies of fuel maps for different N/A setups, all they have to do is PM me..



That's all I have to offer though, www.msefi.com has plenty of people with alot more to offer, and who are actively making code for applications beyond what I need. The parameters and settings for what I use are more than sufficient, I just need to learn how to use it better... :P

And yes the people at www.msefi.com have 13B specific stuff..





There are a handful of people here with maps or code that is really damn useful from anything like a stock port 13B with a dizzy to a big street port motor with Ford EDIS modules for ingition control.. All been done. And all taken care of with the MS box.

I can't believe I've missed noticing THIS thread until now. Anyway, MS can even run a 20B. All my setup needs now is some tuning.

I'm starting a MS project for my car. While the stock FC ECU does work, it has some problems I've not been able to solve. For one, no matter what I've done, the freakin hesiation is there, been through every thread and fix. Got a little worse when I went to Rtek 1.7. Go look over in the FD forums and you'll see they have similar problems.



Second problem is the 1500-3000 rpm range can run a bit rough only in the 25-40mph range--must be load/AFM related. Yea I could probably get an SAFC and smooth things out a little, but for a little more I'll have a full standalone system.



I want to learn more about electronics and am excited about the project. I like the open source side of the project and would like to support it somehow in the future. These forums are a great way to work together and share information. Funny how I see many of the same names here as on the msefi and rx7club.



You guys need to remember Ted is doing this for a business so he needs a company that will back products and get things fixed in a timely fashion. He has my full respect. I don't think he's really bashing MS, just pointing out some truthful points.



Oh and Ted, I'd rather have Linux take over the world instead of Microsoft--at least the world would then have something to say about future development. And one FYI about Linux, NASA is putting Linux on nearly all of the shuttle flight design and mission control workstations--that tells you something about Linux.



Go Megasquirt!!!

[quote name='RETed' date='Aug 12 2005, 11:46 PM']As of this moment, the MS is not in the same category as the Microtech / Haltech / Autronic.

I dunno why people like to compare them like apples-to-apples. :P



What we need is someone to start offering MS kits for the RX-7's and see what the pricing comes out to be???



Some eBay seller is selling them for other cars, and they are asking $500 for it!



I think the price is going to push closer to $1,000 once you get everything squared away...



Right now, it's all talk.

I understand your point about having it open-source and the capabilites are limitless, but the fact of the matter is...there is no such thing, especially with electronics.

You might think you can add a bazillion things to it, but there comes a point where the uP gets too loaded to handle all that processing...unless you go faster uP, which means more money.



I'm NOT knocking the MS - get that straight.

I'm just waiting on the sidelines to see if MS can develop into something what all of you guys are bragging about.

There are very few people that are doing the "grunt work in the trenches"; I've done that kinda stuff before, and it's tedious and boring.

Is there anyone that's contributing to the open-source development of the MS for 13B applications on here???

-Ted

http://fc3spro.com/


[/quote]



Well, starting from the top, a list of specific limitations would be interesting. With the 12by12 tables that MS offers, along with user adjustable table vertices I can't personally see that being a limitation. Happy to see proof that a fixed 16by 16 table would be better or that a larger table isn't just a big pain in the rear to tune.



As to your point about processing limitations. Yes there are limits, however the roadmap for MS includes CANbus support, with tests currently ongoing. This will allow processing and IO to be distributed. Won't give you the sheer grunt of the latest MOTEC units, but that was tried with the EFI332 years ago and was just found too difficult for the average user to handle. So Coil per plug, sequential injection, flybywire throttle control, native use of wideband sensing (note native use, not just basic PID autotune) and a few others are on the cards in the next 12 months, just not ABS/ESP and their ilk. But that's in the future. Right now there are MIPs and memory to burn with the and people working on porting the 8bit rotary specific code onto the 16bit processor. It'll do everything that 90% of users want with the current board and CPU.



As to offering RX7 specific kits, I'm not sure that is needed right now. Sure someone can offer loom services for a particular generation, but MS is not about taking on APeXI at its own game.



As for 'just talk' MS is running on a number of 12As and 13Bs of all flavours. There is a community forming where people can exchange ideas, test out new concepts and move the whole game forwards. Enthusiasts, all doing it for fun and to help each other out.



So come on. Give me a feature list that you would want in an ECU to put in one of your cars and we can put a gap analysis in place. In 12 months time we can do it again. I'm sure you can manage objective once a year?