new to the EMS world, so i got a lot of questions. TIA for the patience.





so, tuning the engine is kind of like a gamble, since we take fuel away until we get detonation or knocking?

i am not sure, but does the haltech/microtech/PFC have a knock sensor? if not, then the basic setup to tune your 7 is



EMS + wideband + datalogging + knock sensor. am i right?



i am planning on getting the LT12 and do the tuning. but it's such a dangeroud mission....

once you've had a little expereince its more like an educated guess, or even easier most people run similar timing and air fuel ratios, so you have some knowledge base to follow



mike

if you take it easy and do it in steps, its not a gamble. leaning out untill detonation isnt always good, when i tune(carbs for now) i tune for power, not nessasarily a/f ratios. the butt dyno is a wonderfull thing!

I learned most if not all of my tuning methods from Chris(Dragon) and IGY.



Basically, I tune with a wideband 02 sensor(techedge 1.5) I use the datalogit for the PFC to record my a/f's for a certain run and go from there.



I don't even bother to look at the knock sensor anymore since it seems so sensitive at times that it picks up little things that "could" be knock, but turn out to be road noise. I've seen my car knock to 100 below boost in the 4000 rpm range...if my knock meter is correct, I'd certainly be knocking...but how do you know at 12 a/f below boost? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683561.gif Practically impossible if you ask me....especially considering that I run a good a/f for driving.



I'm using IGY's timing map right now and used my datalogit/Techedge wide band to tune my top end. Currently running 11.00~11.20 a/f at .8 kilos boost.

Could someone post links for vendors that sell widebands?

www.Techedge.com.au



Dan

$349 for a Complete Digital Wideband O2 Set-up including the Bosch O2 Sensor: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com



Group Buy here: http://www.mercedimports.com/news.asp?id=22



I just got mine yesterday and had the bung(I need T.P. for my bung hole...) welded to my DP...Woo-Hoo.

Thats a nice product they make.



BTW You guys rock with the links.

Now will these all plug up to a laptop?

How is this all used in conjunction with say a Power FC and the Datalogit software?



Please explain.

some of them need a laptop, but some of them can out put a 0-1v or 0-5v signal so you can input it right into your ecu, saves you from having 2 different datalogs



mike

Excellent thread for someone who just purchased a Haltech. Sticky it maybe? https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png

I can answer this..I think.



11:1 isn't universally standard for engines, 11:1 is quite high for a stock engine.



Higher compression produces more power for N/A engines which is why Honda Type R engines are approximately 10:1 I think (may have remembered wrong) mind you that's a lot for a 4 cylinder engine.

When you want to highly tune a N/A piston engine you buy high compression/lighten pistons along with valves so you don't get valve float when you're revving extremley high now. Different degrees in Cams also have some effect I forget though. Tuning N/A is extremely expensive because parts are made extremely quality due to amount of work they have to do. Which is why you see so many Turbo Charged Type R's.





In fact when you turbo charge Type R's the reason why you have to run so low boost is because the engine has such high A/F ratio in the first place. Makes sense?



Keeping in mind that high compression motors plus lots of boost creates crazy power but you engine has to be able to handle that.



That's also why a while back someone told me S4 TII engines are better to highly modify than S5 TII engines even though S5 TII has more BHP stock. This is because S4 TII engines stock have a lower A/F ratio, and you can boost higher without being afraid of detonation.

Lower A/F ratio stock gives you less BHP, but on the S5 the engine is has higher A/F ration so it creates little more bhp stock.



I think this is right, please correct me if it's wrong. [/quote]

we're talking about air fuel ratios, not the compression ratio of the engine, thats a whole 'nother ball of wax



mike

not nesecarily true from my understanding.

i did not know how to put it to words before, but recently Matt (hitman) had a good explination of this on the haltech mailing list. it went something like this...

the same amount of fuel being combusted to make up a certain a/f ratio will have a diferent egt reading due to timing. if you have the timing advanced the heat is going to be held in the motor heating it (internals of motor) up. if timing is to far retarted, the internals will run cooler, but the heat will be seen in the exhaust (higher egt's) you need to find the happy medium for your motor.

did my explaination of HIS explination make any sence? LOL

Lets say i have a base map and have the fuel tuned a bit rich for safety,how would i tune timing for every load and rpm with and without a dyno,Thats what i dont understand and its what i need help on.I know with the average t04e on a 1990 rx7,at 15psi timing should be around from 38 degrees tapered down to 13-15 degrees advance So how do we tune for vaccum to 3,4,5,6,7,8 all the way upto 15 psi for every rpm point.





Thanks

I imagine that this is where a data log would come in handy.

the engine will make pealk power when you have the timing in the optimal spot, however it can be dangerous to keep advancing the timing.



you also want to be watching the egt's they need to stay in a range under full throttle

alright, tuning the fuel seems easy enough, as their is a set AFR you are aiming for.



What about the timing? What EGT's are in the "sweet spot"? how many degrees should you move at once? one? I understand you advance the timing from idle, to spool rpm, than start retarding it. after max torque? This is because the cylinder pressure is at the highest between full spool rpm, and max torque, it then begins to drop. correct? Since I have no dyno, I don't know my max torque, so is their any base lines for, stock port, stock turbo, street port?

I realize their will be lots of varibles, whare the probe is placed, motor porting?, exhust systems, and so on, but in genral what temps should I be looking for?



I hear of people putting their EGT probes in the manifold, just after the turbo, and in the mid pipe. Which is best? I would think manifold, but wouldn't the turbo retain extra heat, throwing off the guage? With widebands it's said they should placed x inches after the turbo. is their anything simular for EGT's?

Timing should be retarded the most at the peak tourqe then can be raised a little to keep the egt stable after peak tourqe.As for finding tourqe only way i know is a dyno.Maybe you can check out the new gtech pro it measures dyno and horsepower but i would set it up on a friends stock car to see how accurate it is and check the factory specs for that car somewhere to see if its worth using.I hope someone chimes on for us who live in a tuneless city..

Sorry guys, It is pinned. Nice thread.



Mike, how did you come up with the right fuel ratio on the diagram?

You should fit an EGT probe as close to the exhuast port pre-turbo exhuast housing as poss.



I have had it pre and post on my Impreza, but just going through all the same tuning bits on the FD at the moment, so plenty of learning to be done.



Single turbo headers are a lot easier to insert the probe than the OE twin pack.



Dan

well once you look at the diagram and drive around with a/f monitor you can see it going into each section



mike

Oh with the stock computer right? So it sees 14.7 on light load cruising right?



C

yep, thats right. its in closed loop 14.7 +/- whatever the 02 corrects to. we had ours cruising at 15.5:1ish



they have it running at 14.7:1 because thats where the cat is most happy (i think), its bad for the cat to go leaner than 14.7:1, or have misfires. thats one of the reasons they are so rich stock is to keep the cat from running too hot. the cat is not affected by rich mixture, it catylises oxygen, the more oxygen the hotter it gets



mike

how is this wide band with the lsu-4 sensor



http://www.motec.com/products/plm/plm.htm



is it any better than the previous mentioned ones?



just wondering because I read this form the merced import site



"News Flash: The LM-1 w/ the Bosch O2 Sensor won't work with turbocharged Rotary engine. You have to use the NTK O2 Sensor. That is unless you have a 1" bypass tube welded in line for the sensor."

But those reading are also affected by the air pump, adding more oxygen dont u think?



I guess is ok to run the car for cruising around 14.7. I ran 14.0 coming to CA, didn't sound like it was hesitating.

we're running like 15.5-14.5 going down to la, cruising.



mike

Can anyone explain about how a/f tuning and timing tuning work in conjuction with the spooling of the turbo?I was reading a/f and timing is directly related to how the turbos going to spool.I imagine this is another variabale ontop of egt temps and a/f ratios one needs to consider when tuning.



Thanks

not nesecarily true from my understanding.

i did not know how to put it to words before, but recently Matt (hitman) had a good explination of this on the haltech mailing list. it went something like this...

the same amount of fuel being combusted to make up a certain a/f ratio will have a diferent egt reading due to timing. if you have the timing advanced the heat is going to be held in the motor heating it (internals of motor) up. if timing is to far retarted, the internals will run cooler, but the heat will be seen in the exhaust (higher egt's) you need to find the happy medium for your motor.

did my explaination of HIS explination make any sence? LOL [/quote]

My original post, which was obviously edited, mentions the importance of timing.

Some insight to how the timing actually takes part, however, is nice to know.

i know the mixture gets richer under hard acceleration to prevent detonation at high rpms, but does anyone know where (throttle opening) the stock ecu increases fuel and what the a/f ratio goes to? what does the a/f ratio goto stock under full throttle and what is the leanest it can go under full throttle and still be safe?

I can check those for you on my keypad.

Under part throttle and WOT.

But as far as a specific A/F that is safe.

Isnt that gonna vary from car to car considering the changing variables?

what the fd does, is once you leave the idle map (1200-1500) it goes into closed loop and looks at the 02 sensor, so its running 14.7, then at 1psi or 3200rpms witchever comes first, it goes to 10:1. if you had a better computer you could run it leaner a little longer, but the fd ecu is slow compared to the turbos over 3200, so they tune it rich.



the fc is similar but its switchover is 3800, it doesnt quite go full rich either (i think), because its got an afm and can keep up with the turbo



mike

Lets say i was running a afr of 11.5 with ign leading at 12 degrees..Then i increase timing to up around 14-15 degrees.Will this cause a lower afr and ill have to retune the fuel map or will the afr stay at 11.5?

Whoa, a lot of stuff here.



Here are my questions:



What are all of the things involved in a COMPLETE MAP for lets say (not to complicate things) a stock 13B-REW.



From what I've read here, it's timing, fuel, and air. But, what's retardation, and knock, and detonation, and how do you avoid the things that you don't want (i.e. knock and detonation)?



Obviously they are bad as they cause death to an engine, but how do we avoid them when tuning?



Also,what's the point of logging info into the datalogit or whatever you're using?



How do we start tuning an engine to take more mods after the "3 mod rule" on an FD?



It is my understanding, that when tuning a stock engine to right away going to 500HP on a T78 for example, one must tune for EVERY RPM increment as when accelerating to WOT till redline, the engine demands more fuel? Or does it? Does it demand just more fuel, or more fuel, air, timing etc?



We always say that the ratio between fuel and air is always the number of fuel, per one air (i.e. 11:1, 10:1), I don't think I understand why that is? Why only one air?



It's not like the engine is sucking in only one (sorry, but I don't know what the measurment of air is in, is it punds, kilo's etc?) air per stroke, or is it?



Thanks for reading!!!

ok step by step, its one air because other wise you have fractions, ie 13air to 27fuel. notice its a ratio of the mixture, not the quantity.



basically the map is the timing of the spark and the timing and quanitity of the fuel.



the spark needs to be delivered at the right time, and is influenced by rpms, (it takes a set amount of time to burn fuel, and rpms change, so at high rpm you have to spark earlier, to get the flame to burn at the right spot).



the fuel needs to be injected at the right time and quantity also.

the timing is basically how long it takes for the fuel to get into the engine, its realted to how far away the injector is from the port, and is affected by rpms just like the ignition.



the fuel quantity is influenced by a lot. the port design, the cumbustion chamber design, the size of the engine, the air temp, the coolant temp etc etc



so to address the tuning fd after 3 mods question:

the further you get from stock the more you need to change in the map. so for 3 mods you may only have to add a bit of fuel, and maybe retard the timing a couple degrees right at wot, but a street port needs more fuel at idle, and slightly different timing etc etc



mike

ok step by step, its one air because other wise you have fractions, ie 13air to 27fuel. notice its a ratio of the mixture, not the quantity.



basically the map is the timing of the spark and the timing and quanitity of the fuel.



the spark needs to be delivered at the right time, and is influenced by rpms, (it takes a set amount of time to burn fuel, and rpms change, so at high rpm you have to spark earlier, to get the flame to burn at the right spot).



the fuel needs to be injected at the right time and quantity also.

the timing is basically how long it takes for the fuel to get into the engine, its realted to how far away the injector is from the port, and is affected by rpms just like the ignition.



the fuel quantity is influenced by a lot. the port design, the cumbustion chamber design, the size of the engine, the air temp, the coolant temp etc etc



so to address the tuning fd after 3 mods question:

the further you get from stock the more you need to change in the map. so for 3 mods you may only have to add a bit of fuel, and maybe retard the timing a couple degrees right at wot, but a street port needs more fuel at idle, and slightly different timing etc etc



mike [/quote]

Ah, so that's what timing is. So is retardation speeding the timing up, or slowing it down? Speeding it up right?

slowing down

Gotcha!!! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif