Man, I just got the craziest but maybe valid idea. I was wondering, you know all those front mount Air intakes that you see ricers putting on their civics to make it look as if they have an intercooler? Sure its pretty gay but I just had a thought. With all the plathora of threads we have been having about cone filters and intakes and such and so on. I come to the conclusion that it don't make much of a diff about air flow. that it isn't a question about shape but surface area, right? So technically wouldn't one of those intakes work as well as a cone filter if not better?

So in my some what non soberous state of mind I ask you all this. When you convert your car to use a FMIC, what do you do with the space where the TMIC was? I'm thinking take one of those Front mount air filters and slap it right up there so it can catch the air that the TMIC once drew from the scoop on the hood!

you'd be getting ram air so you'd be guaranteed cold air.



If youre not sure what air filter I am talking about here's a url for one

http://www.ppsonline.net/underhoodFrontMount.htm



What do you think? Is it a valid Idea or just drunken babble.



El Gregorio (aka Greg) https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

from what I've read, more airflow comes in the engine bay through the front than the "scoop"

I assume you're talking about an N/A with a TII hood? How are you going to plumb it to meet back up with the throttle body? It's just going to have to hit a dead wall, and the engine just ends up sucking the air in anyway. If you're talking turbo, they already have "ram air." It's called a turbocharger.



True "Ram-Air" systems are seen moslty in use on V type engines with RWD. Air comes in and has a pretty straight shot to the combustion chamber. A rotary's intake just has way to many bends.

He's talking about a TII when he said "When you convert your car to use a FMIC." I had the exact same idea a while back. I would have sealed it off so it just got the air from scoop. People said it will not work or not well at least b/c the air exits the scoop. But I have been thinking about it again lately.



If you had the intake sealed off wouldn't it suck air through the scoop anyways? Since it's turbo you don't really need every bit of good flow. The turbo and a good IC can make up for that, correct? Would that different flow have any effect on the aerodynamics of the vehicle?

The scoop doesn't ram air, it's an exit on our cars. You would be better off trying to place the filter up near the cowl and lifting the back of the hood slightly, for a cowl induction effect. I doubt the work is worth the reward.

rmaiersq, that is what I was thinking, if one were to have an airbox that sealed off wit hthe hood, much like how the TMIC does, the vaccuum created from the turbo would be sufficient enough to suck air through the scoop. I am sure this is a great deal of airflow rummaging around in the engine bay, but my concern is that most of that air has been saturated by the radiant heat of the motor and turbo. So what do we do to defend agains that heat? put a heat shield around the intake, blocking off airflow from most of the engine bay. Besides that look what the air has to go through before it enters the engine bay, (in the case u have an FMIC) the FMIC, Oil Cooler, Radiator. Or it snakes its way around headlight assembly. It could creep up through from under the car, but like I said earlier, it would get saturated with heat. Basically I am just trying to figure a way that the intake can have it's own source of fresh cool air, uninterrupted by obsticles or shared with other components. It may or may not work, hell I don't even know if there is gonna be enough room for the piping involved when you have all that piping for the FMIC. I'd do it to test the Idea, but it would require me to buy the intake, a FMIC kit, and a Aftermarket EFI comp to rid us of the AFM. Unfortunately I do not make that kind of money to spen so frivorously.



another moment of thoughtless blabber, brought to you by:



Greg

So your saying it pulls air from the engine bay through the intercooler and out the scoop?? Not that I am questioning you or anything like that, what do I know. But it just doesn't seem to make sense to pull air that is already from a heated source through the intercooler and out to a cool source of air. Hmm I am gonna have to do some digging on this one, where was it you read or heard about this, I'd kinda like to find out more!



Greg

if you can't put the intake up front, pipe it down by the brake cooling duct...I've seen it done somewhere on here, and it seemed like it would work well

this was another option I was thinking about, and after reading my book on race car aerodynamics, its probably a better solution than the bringing air from where the TMIC is. Now according to this book, the scoop design used by mazda does infact bring air in, not as an exit, if it was an exit, it should be facing the other way. The two problems with the with the scoop are, its in a low pressure zone in the rx-7's aerodynamic flow profile, and second its too close to the surface so at Highspeeds (speeds higher than what the normal person would put on a car) the boundry layer gets so thick around the surface of the car that most air will bypass the scoop. only way to make it work is to bring the scoop higher than the boundry layer, like you see on Funny car dragsters, not the aesthetically pleasing ordiment we want on our car.



But rmaiersq was right about placing an intake by the cowling where the hood meets the windshield, cause that is a place of high pressure, But like he said the work ain't worth the reward. Since the other two spots of high pressure of the second gen rx-7's aerodynamic profile is the lower nose region and the other is the tail where your spoiler is. The only obvious choice is the nose. My only concern is how dependant is the brake system to those vents. I've seen a lot of pics where people place fog lights and so forth that block the air flow, I was just wondering how it will effect brake efficiency should one reroute the duct to bring air to the intake.



Damn that boundry layer and low pressure zones for ruining my drunken Idea.



Oh well



Greg

thats funny i was just thinking that my self.. if i ran a FMIC then that would rid the scoop of anything to do so i thought itd be cool if could make some kinda box just like the inter cooler that could draw air from the scoop and even if it didn't work any better then the stock filter it would still be a cool idea

I wouldn't know where to find the pic, but someone had drilled a hole down toward the brake duct, but didn't interrupt the flow to the brake. They put their intake right next to it, where there was still high air flow.

now... where its coming from stock... in the center... there has to be a reason why they made it draw from there is there any reason that people know of?

I am thinking it draws air from the area before the radiator, where the coolant resevior resides. I never understood that about car manufactures, they always seem to stuff the air intake inlet ind the weirdest of places, they must know something they ain't telling us.



Greg

Thanks Lee that was the image I was refering to. Although I wish they had a profile of a TII for comparison

the more I look at that, the more confused I get.



so, if they arrows pointing away from the car are lower pressure, then how can that be with air ramming right into the front bumper (@ FTP light area)?



if the arrows pointing away from the car are greater pressure, then how can air be exerting pressure on the rear bumper?

you'd think thatd be smooth and round like the car's own shape but that is just confusing and how would that differ if i was to put a universal wing on it

Air flows off the body in the direction the arrows point is what i think it is.

yes someone please learn me on this

its just a their to examplify pressure, the farther away the centerline (the line that the arrows point to) the lower the pressure zone is on the surface of the car. It had me confuse too, but it doesn't mean the air follows the line, it simply shows measure of pressure. Any of the arrows that are that are pointing away from the surface mean their is negative pressure, the longer the arrow the lower the pressure is compared to atmospheric pressure. When you have arrows pointing towards the surface of the car that is where pressure is higher than atmospheric pressure.

The low pressure zone in the front of the car by the grill is called the stagnation point air particles are being forced to slow down and particle counts get packed like a britney spears concert, with no option to go forward air partcles turn away from the car and start accelerating up and over the the hood of car, because when air travels faster the particles spread out more, lowering the pressure. So that crazy mound of low pressure you see at the front of the hood is caused by air beind deflected off the grill and zipping over the hood. I am looking at airfoil pressure diagrams and they do very much the same thing. The leading edge has a massive mound of low pressure on it. cause that is where air is accelerating and moving faster.



So think of it this way, if your still confused a bit, at any poin on the surface of the car, where the arrow is pointing away the farthest is where the air is travelling the fastest, meaning less pressure. Where the air is pointing in the car is just the opposite.

the firs part of that confused me a bit but the last little bit helped alot

Actually the air in the spot that the scoop is in really isn't that low in pressure. It could still work. I say take some carbon fiber and make a box out of it and permenately attatch it to the bottom side of the scoop with some screws and weather stripping (for seal). Place the largest flat/square filter inside the box. Plumb your piping(aluminium preferably) wrapped in header/exhaust wrap to keep out the heat. When cutting the piping, cut it in 2 pieces. One from the box going half way to the turbo or TB and the other from this pipe to the turbo or TB. Put some sort of quick release coupler in the middle so that the hood can be opened without doing any major work or destroying your intake system. Somebody try this and let me know how it works. BTW all the materials mentioned here are only suggested. Feel free to use what you want. Also I suggest putting some heat sheilding in under the box.

ok, that was the part I didn't get...right at the front of the hood



I knew the lines were for pressure, and that faster moving fluids have lower pressure, I just didn't know how that happened to the front of the hood



thanks for the clarification

7Mech I am not too keen on having the intake bolted on to the hood, personally I even with having a quick release it will still be a pain to access come the time you have to change your air filter. Plus what about rain?? lets not for get "water bad" so the intake design has to incorporate some form of water trap, preventing water from intering the air intake ducting.



So I still like the Idea of having the air intake assembly mounted in the place of the intercooler, should the it be possible for it to work. So I did some CG renderings of the concept I came up with, by no means are they complete, but they illustrate the idea.



If you want to check them out



click here





Greg

I think the heat rising from the motor would counteract the effect you are looking for. The air is quite a bit cooler in the front bumper area, you would get more airflow, and wouldn't have to worry about water as much as you would with your current intake design.



Why not design us something nice to put up front or back by the cowl?

I'll do that ! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

Those pictures are amazing and that is perfect if we could get someone to make that i would by it in a hart beat no matter if it worked better or not

What happens when it rains heavily? gotta be careful u don't start compressing water... not pretty.

I really believe air is nicely ramed in a TII hood. Ok, the picture shows a low pressure area in that part of the hood. So what?



On an airplane wing there is a big low pressure area on it. On the top of the wing.



Rest assured there is airflow over the top of the wing. If there wasn't the plane would not fly. The only place there is stagnent air is the thin boundry layer.



The car's nose is like a wing. Air flows under the car and the air flows over the top of the car. The nose acts like a pseudo wing.



That scoop works. I wish I had some way to prove it.

Just put a wind meter sensor in the scoop and run a wire from it so that you can get a read out while driving. Record these reading and then move the sensor into the nose of the car where you'd place a cone filter. Take the readings there and compare to see which is gattine more air/air velocity. You could also put an air temp sensor in there with them too and compare air temps.

yes you could do that... that also alows fundings but i agree with... wanksta, that scoop is desined to alow flow to TMIC now why couldn't it provide flow to a TM AIR INTAKE... granted i may or may not provide cooler air .... The pics of that TM Air Intake were amazing and if someone made it i would buy that in a heart beat.

i didnt read all that annoying BS



but most people who have FMIC tend to have EMS .... therefore the best intake would be a filter attached to the turbo

Nah, I completly agree that area could be used for intake air. I just disagree that it does NOT recieve ram air.



James

well it still would be a hit point in rotory profomance

sounds like we need a fluid dynamics specialist to consult on the air flow characteristics. some say yay others say nay. Too bad we can't ask someone whose job is answering these questions. However, be that it brings air in or not, the engine will still suck air in, air is everywhere and there is no vacuum inside the engine bay so suffocating the engine I doubt will be a problem, no matter where it is. As far as heat is concerned, thermowrap the pipe and gold plate the outside of the airbox, it is infact one of the best heat reflectors, why else would the McLaren F1's engine bay be completely lined with gold.

thats enough for me