hello,

i remember seeing some pics of a "dry sump" system for the 13b a while back. it basically involved replacing the oil pan with a metal plate with the areas for the oil pick up and drop off receded outward a bit. i cannot afford the Mazdaspeed setup, though i am aware of its existence. i could have sworn i saw the "dry sump plate" somewhere on these boards, but i can't seem to locate it now (tried lots of searches). anyway, i have to drop an S5 13b into a 240sx, so I am definitely going to have to do this mod in order to clear the 240sx cross member. if anyone can help get me on the right track with some useful links that would be great. if you guys would like i can try to document the fabrication process to help out anyone else that would like to try this for whatever reason...

thanks in advance.

Love the idea of an 13b in a 240 lol you will get flamed alot if you post that on the 240 message boards though.



about your drysump idea sorry but dont know jack about it

I think I remember seeing that before too! I'm behind you on this project good luck!

thanks for the support guys, i don't plan on getting on the 240 boards until i start doing some suspension work on the ride, i probably wont mention which engine i am using when they ask me if i am "running KA or SR?" !



i might just try to "wing it" on this dry sump deal. i'll do my best to engineer fail safes into the control system for both low oil pressure and high oil temp. hopefully with these measures in place i will be free to do a little experimenting without smoking the motor. i'll get to fabricating the system next week and i'll try and post some pics to help others.

mazdatrix has a kit but it is pretty pricey.

the mazdatrix sump appears to be the mazdaspeed kit i mentioned. It seems madzdatrix is a vendor for mazdaspeed products.

I did find something promising on mazdatrix just under the listing for the sump however:

race parts

just below the pump is a dry sump plate for around $100.

I may purchase this and modify it for the "DIY dry sump" project. It seems pricey considering i could do all the fabrication, but when you take into account the price of metal stock, the tooling costs, and the time i will "waste" making it, just buying the plate seems like a pretty reasaonable option...

why waste ur time with it all premix and be done

Personally, I dont think being able to drop the engine 2" will be worth the $1k it will take you to piece together a kit. You would be better off cutting out part of the crossmember and re-welding it. I had to make a new crossmember with a 2" drop to make my b2200 rotary mounts work out. Another option would be an FD or GSL-SE oil pan, or even just a custom wet sump oil pan and pickup.



If you are set on dry sump though, hit up ebay or a circle track shop around you. Theres tons of used dry sump units you can pick up that bolt onto the engine like an accessory. Then you will just need an oil tank, plumbing, etc. But even still, you can expect to spend $ 500-1000 going this route, depending on your fab skills.

I had seen one last weekend at a shop, was a trick set up and definitly required as much thinking with your head

as being able to fab the rest with your hands.

I guess maybe what I am talking about is in fact a custom wet sump...I'm not planning on replacing the actual oil pump or suction tube, but rather, re-locating the actual volume of the oil pan into a cansiter adjacent to the motor on the spark side. the plate on the bottom of the motor would not be entirely flat, it would have little protruding areas where the suction tube would stick into, with an oil line coming from this side of this protrusion, from the neerby oil canister. there would be a similar protrusion near the back for the oil return line. the protruding areas would likely be fabricated by drilling two 3" holes in the plate where the suction tube and return dump are located. then we would cut two 2" long sections of 3" exhasut pipe and weld them to the plate where the holes are. then we would cap them off with the material we hole-sawed out of the plate in the first place. then we would weld a bung on each protrusion for oil feed and return. does this make more sence?



BTW, assuming this will work, i can pull this off for around $30, not $500-1000!

The sump on ANY wet sump oil system has to be lower than the oil drains coming from the engine, otherwise the oil will back up into the drains and cause all sorts of problems. Dry sump pumps get around this by having scavenging sections that pull the oil from those drains, and pump them into the remote mounted sump.



So no, your idea will not work. You are making a mountain out of a molehill with this whole problem anyways. If 2" is going to cause you enough trouble that you feel you need dry sump, you seriously need to rethink the swap. That being said, the crossmember does not encompass the area of the entire oil pan, so I fail to see why you cant just find an OEM pan that will clear the crossmember, or even make a custom pan.



Have you even test fitted the engine in the car? Im guessing no

Yes I’ve test fitted the motor in the car, in several slightly different spots. There are interference issues in every spot, but with the location we have decided to go with, it’s only the oil pan that will need modification. We will have to cut into the firewall a bit as well, but the engine will be pushed back and down low, and no major structural compromises should result. That’s why we decided on this location. Technically, it’s more that the steering gear is in the way, not the cross member itself. I don't know much about steering setups, maybe I can just move the steering rack to the front side of the cross member. It’s like that in the RX7 isn't it?



I see your point about the location of the oil can needing to be below the engine drain, and I agree now that I think about it, so I thank you for that help. The dilemma is that the cross member is going to me right in the way of the very front of the pan, where the suction line is. I think I agree that I should just make a custom pan and effectively "move" the volume rearward a bit. I might have to modify the suction tube as well, because even with no oil pan on the engine, the screen of the pick up tube is positioned very close to the cross member. I might take the suction tube out, and then extend the straight section between its bends by a couple inches. That way it will drop into the volume of oil a little further from the cross member, allowing me to make the custom pan a little more appropriately.



one other quick question...if you were to turn the engine over with the pan not attached, but some oil left in the system, how many spots would oil fall out of the bottom of the block? Doesn’t the oil only dump out of the back side housing? I know it doesn't go through the rotor hsgs, but I can't remember the exact oil path in the engine. Does anybody know this?

Most likely, it would only come out of the center drain, if there is any oil left in the rotors. I cant really think of anything else that would drain oil when you turn the engine over, but not when its just sitting without a pan.



You can drop the rack, but go read up on some of the early 20b FD installs to hear about the problems. Lowering the rack throws the bump steer out, and while it may not be noticable in a street car, it certainly will in a race car. There are ways around it, but it was generally decided its better to leave the rack, and steering geometry the way it was.



Can you take a pic of the engine in the car? I want to get a better idea of exactly how and where its hitting so hopefully I can give you some better advice.

I have a 'DIY' dry sump setup on my 13B. Application is slightly different as it is in a kit car, but it fits nicely. sadly has been off the road for years so cannot tell you how well it works. If I remember I'll take some new pictures and repost the old ones to show you. Also have a search on this forum as Lynn Hannover has posted some very good information on DS setups. His solution is way more elegant than mine and give you a flat bottom to the engine.