if one were to put a low boost turbo kit on a N/A motor would it still blow the apex seals?

When I say low boost I am talking 5-8 psi, you know just for a very small kick in the pants!!

By the time it's all said and done and running reliably, you could have spent the same amount just swapping in a turbo motor or buying a TII.

I think BigTurbo might have a turbo'd N/A motor for sale... https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif

Is it just me, or do we get a new thread for this topic every 2 days?



Not trying to be rude, it just seems that a lot of people ask this same question, when the previous topic with the same subject isn't that far down the list.

haha, hell yea with a new s5 turbo...make me an offer https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.png

PM me with an asking price. I just might oblige you. That is, if you're not ******* with me......

I hate to crash this post and I really don't intend to start anything again, but the post on how BigTurbo bought an engine that he thought was turboed but was N/A or whatever had me wondering a couple of things. Is there no way to tell externally before you buy it and tear down if it was made to be N/A or Turboed? Also, are there no casting numbers or anything on the block that could tell you? I ask because most domestic piston engines have casting numbers that will tell you basically anything and everything about the block, so I was just curious if there was no way to identify that rotary engine that way. Don't mean to be 'smart' or rude, just wondering though.

i think bigT bought the engine sight unseen from the internet?

It's possible, but it's pricey, and with the end result, you might as well have sold your N/A and bought a Turbo II. Just my .02. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/happy.png

i bought my engine purely on pics, i basically saw turbo version intake manis, a turbo, front cover (with oil feed to turbo), ic, ect... you get the idea. i mean it is very hard to get a turbo'ed n/a to run with stock turbo manifolds so that thought never even ran through my head. only way you can tell if it is an n/a is if you see the 5th and 6th port holes...

Well even if this was sight unseen, was it possible to ask for casting numbers in any case to find out? Like say I magically find a rotary in a junkyard somewhere, are there casting #'s for me to identify the block by?

No, there are no casting #s. It's pretty easy to trick someone. You don't have to open the motor, but you do have to take of the intake manifolds to tell for sure.

Lets try and make this into a faq.





To turbocharge an n/a motor you need to either: a) adapt a t2 lower intake manifold via an adapter or cutting/welding or b) use the stock n/a intake manifolds and make a "cherry" as they like to call it. A cherry is an adapter piece to make intercooler piping fit on the n/a throttle body.



You can see the reason for this below. Top picture is an n/a motor. It has 6 intake ports vs the 4 port turbo motor below.

Here is a picture of an n/a motor, aka 6 port with all the intake manifolds removed. #s 2 & 6 show the extra 5/6th auxiliary ports.

Its not the best picture, but below is a 4 port turbo motor. As you can see there are no 5/6th auxiliary ports, just 2 larger secondary ports on the front and rear irons.

This is what is refered to as a cherry.

This is from Aaron cake's turbo'd n/a motor.

The next problem is if you use the stock n/a manifolds the stock turbo ehxaust housing will not allow the turbo to clear the manifold. So either: a) make a new exhaust manifold or b) use a spacer to push the turbo manifold out several inches.



You can buy 2 Racingbeat flanges and weld in several inches of piping shown below.

Now you have the issue of the oil feed line, you can either: a) buy a oil pedistal adpater. RacingBeats, teamfc3s, or fc3s.org all sell them. Then plum in an oil line from the pedistal to the turbo, but you have to find the right fittings which can get hard. b) tap into the stock oil cooler or the front iron.



For the oil return line you can either: a) use a t2 front cover or b) tap into the oil pan and make your own line/fiitings.

If you use the n/a intake manifolds then you need to use a FMIC, but you're going to have to make your own piping as the n/a and t2 throttle bodies point to different sides.

If you use the t2 intake manifolds then you can either use the stock tmic/hood or a buy a fmic kit or make your own kit.



As far as the ecu/harness goes you can either use the stock t2 ecu/harenss/injectors/afm/boost sensor.

By far the best route would be a standalone such as a Haltech or microtech.



Since the n/a motor is high compression its easier to detonate and blow. To compensate you need to have precise tuning and a cold intake charge. In my opinion a standalone is a MUST. Most who have tried running these boosted n/a motors with the stock efi t2 or n/a blow the motor.



As far as fuel goes you should atleast use a t2 fuel pump or an aftermarket larger flow pump such as a walrbo. And atleast use t2 injectors if not larger secondaries. Larger secondaries do require an safc if using the stock ecu.



N/a and t2 coils are the same, no need to swap.

bump for more info...

correction, it's the infamous strawberry mr. aaroncake argued endlessly would have no ill performance aspects on the other forum... man that was a funny thread.

yeah for the effort he could have done a full t04 manifold, and had a turbo that didnt suck

heh cherry what was I thinking. Anyhow If you want a high compression motor you should just build a t2 motor with n/a rotors..

What if i got the turbo manifold, turbo, turbo controller and harness from an S4 t2 and put it in an S4N/a?

well i just did a NA turbo setup, using 6 port block, port matched s4 t2 manifolds, an s5 turbo, and s4 turbo electroincs, ecu, injectors, afm, pressure sensor. i modified the NA harness to work with the t2 ecu,



BTW im runnin an rtek1.7 with 720cc secondary injectors, walbro 255 pump, and a SAFC, havnt "tuned it yet" but its running fine.



heres some pics , althought this is a questionable setup for oil feeds/ return, my gauge and oil level sender didnt work anyway

taped into the stock pressure sender, then drain is into the oil level sender. and im goign to be using an aftermarket gauge anyway... wiring was allready cut when i bought hte car so i just spliced it back together, lengthening the TPS and BAC was requirted.



starting the port matching processor matching a 4 port man to a 6 port block

Attachment 21093

Attachment 21094



some of the oil return and pressur line stuff..

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/PICT0416.jpg

oil drain

Attachment 21095



opps skiped a head ab it almost done

Attachment 21096

Attachment 21097

runs great is alot faster then before even running stock boost for now... with safc set to 17% rich for "safty" till i get the wide band installed...

Turbo a N/A engine waste of time. Rotors chamber is not right. Swap the engine for a complete turbo engine.

what would be the advantage of a t2 with na rotors? mazda must have built them the way they did for a reason

na rotors are higher compression, higher compression= more hp per psi.....



however go to high with compression and detonation can be an issue, s4 t2 is 8.5:1, s5 t2 and FD are 9.0:1



but the na 9.4 rotors arnt THAT high of compression really...





well my NA turbo just dynoed 231HP and 220 ft lbs at 10 psi. and keep in mind this is a NA block with 200K miles haha

The higher compression rotors also get you into boost faster - isn't J-rat putting down over 500 hp on a turbo'd NA? Admittedly, I think he's learned a couple of things the hard way. If you're not intending to go nuts, I don't see where there's a problem, correctly tuned.



You said you tuned for 17% rich until you got the wideband - is that 17% rich across the board, low and high throttle? What are you doing injector-wise? I'm wrapping up my turbo'd NA project soon, and it really didn't cost that much to do it, but I'm trying to collect what info I can. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif

Also, the distributor has to be modified to lock out too much advance. I am 90% done with my turbo'd N/A.



I need help figuring out this mysterious MSD 3 coil set up. I am running 2 MSD 6al's and a Haltech F9, which is a fuel injection computer. i was told I need to run 3 coils with this set up, but I am still searching for more info.



My set up is in a track only car, with fuel cell, large pumps, etc. I weld/grinded the T2 lower manifold, larger secondaries, S5 T2 ex. mani, S5 turbo, oil feed from oil pedistal and welded a small inlet into the oil pan for return, water circulating with feed and returns welded into radiater lines, FMIC, and most importantly, having to run 100+ octane for safety purposes, but I still will when I go S5 T2 motor.



A small problem was the throttle cable fab work. The N/A one is real short!



[attachment=42619:03_17_07_061.jpg]

The easy short parts list I used was - From a TII: LIM, UIM, throttlebody, intercooler, piping, exhaust manifold, turbo, turbo coolant and oil piping, throttle cable, front cover, TID, downpipe, BOV, and check valve for the brake booster (designed for vacuum, not for boost)

Other parts needed : oil filter sandwich adapter, NPT fitting for oil, boost gauge, SAFC 2, 720cc secondaries, wideband o2 for tuning, miscellaneous rubber tubing for oil and water feed to turbo, custom weld to fit NA exhaust to TII downpipe.



It would definitely have been easier to just swap in a TII motor, this way was a LITTLE cheaper, but mostly because I already had the SAFC, the gauge pod, and the sandwich adapter. If you had to buy a SAFC, I think it would put you over.

I’m sorry if people are getting sick of discussing turbocharging and NA, and I can understand their frustration when they are constantly asked the same naive questions. I’m also sorry if I am “crashing” this thread, I would imaging people would get even more upset if I started a new topic for this one.

With that in mind, I will attempt to not get flamed:



I have heard a lot of people giving very vague arguments both FOR and AGAINST turbocharging an NA. People seem to say things like “your compression ratio is too high in an NA” without making mention of mean effective pressure (MEP) calculations. Considering MEP, are there any structural reasons why an NA motor can not withstand the same MEP as a turbocharged TII motor? I have been milling this over in my head while scouring forums, only to find a lack of scientific information. I’m no metallurgist, and have only done a tear down on one S4 NA, and I am preparing an S5 NA for turbocharging. However it seems to me that people often ignore the math in favor of what they have been told, or what they have conjured up in their minds. I’m not trying to make the argument that “turbocharging an NA motor is ok, because people that say otherwise are dumb” I would just like some sound reasoning as to why exactly (in scientific terms if possible) it’s a poor choice. If no one can help me out on this one, I’m going to do it anyway. I’ll try to document and log all I can, and when I either destroy, or make 300whp with my (free) NA S5 I will let others know and hopefully advance this endless debate in some MEANINGFUL scientific way. I post this because I would imagine I am not the first to do this, and I would hope that those of us with some engineering knowledge can help each other out on this one.



Cost is 100% absolutely NOT a factor here, please do not suggest “it would be cheaper if…”

Complexity is 100% absolutely NOT a factor either, please do not suggest “it would be easier if…”



Consider this post ended, but if you think I have gone crazy or that I am a huge jackass, read the following:

I got the rotary for free, I got the turbo for free, and can get replacement turbos for free. I have access to a lot of shop equipment. Things like fabricating "the Aaron Cake Strawberry” will take us less than an hour, and I’ve got lots of metal laying around. Fabrication is not an issue. We get lots of **** for free, so cost is not MUCH of an issue. We are all engineers (both electrical and mechanical) that are trying to learn a thing or two while having a good time in the garage. I plan on purchasing a TII eventually. I plan on NOT investing much money/time on parts that can NOT go from the S5 NA to the TII. I plan on investing most of the money/time in things that will work with either engine, pending minor modification. I’d like to advance the rotary community in some small way, so please don’t think I am trying to disrespect anyone here. I plan on giving a lot back to this community once we have gotten this project really rolling, and I can give some clear scientific results, I am just looking for a little support to get started. Hopefully I will be answering questions soon as opposed to just asking them.

Thanks,

Max

dude, it's very good your trying to raise things here...go for getting that Tll because the turbocharging a n/a is a waste..so hopefully you can see you have my support.