Please forgive my ignorance if the answers to my questions are blatantly obvious, but i'm a fan of the Rx7 series, and not yet an expert. I was curious as to why there arent any (as far as i know) mid engine rotary cars, and why there arent any rotary exotics?

I would imagine such a potent and efficient engine would be ideal for a high powered exotic, especially the 20b and 23b. I would imagine a 3 or 4 rotor engine would be as powerful, if not more powerful than some of the larger engines used currently, and much more efficient as far as weight is concerned, i can only imagine how much lighter a 2.3 liter engine is than a 6 liter!

I was also curious as to why i havent heard of any mid-engine rotaries, (besides Mazda's race cars) is there some technical reason the engine couldnt be in the back? I've always imagined that a mid mounted engine had more potential for high performance applications, and would allow for better weight distribution.

I've also noticed that aside from custom fabrication of certain parts, the biggest issue with a 20b swap is making a larger engine fit in certain models, it therefor makes sense to me that mazda could build an exotic while keeping the overall dimensions of the car relatively similar, but adjust to fit a slightly larger engine in the back.

I'm just curious. I see alot of new mazda concepts, the kabura looks really nice, and i had heard it rumored that it might come with a rotary option, but last i checked, it's currently running with the miata engine, I just thought it'd be nice to have another rotary powered car for the 21st century. If anyone can shed some light on this topic, or also voice their opinions, i'd be grateful to you for sating my curiousity.

i think the only reason there isnt a rotary mid-engined exotic is because nobody wants to make one, or that Mazda doesnt have the money. and sorry to say, rotary engines arent the most effecient engines out there, largely in part to the lack of money going into the further development of rotaries.

But the engine has SO MUCH potential, and like you say, it should be developed more, it's a shame that it's not. When i say efficient, i dont mean gas-wise, which of course is a big issue today, but size-wise and weight wise.

Hopefully one day it'll happen, and hopefully i'll be around to see it.



As for the mid engine layout, is there any particular reason it couldnt be done? Has anyone ever put a rotary in an MR2?

That was true when rotaries were new. Today, thanks to widespread use of light metals and plastics in engine construction, the weight issue is moot, or even siding towards the piston engine after you factor in the reduced exhaust and cooling system requirements. Take a look at the Duratec four-cylinders for a nice example of a modern undertuned, lightweight power plant.

if i am not mistaken there was a midengine rotary back in the late 70s as a kit car, was powered by a 12a. also there was an american lemons lmp2 courage chassis powered by a 20bpp last year ( bk motorsports out of good old wisconsin) but now there goin with a lola and a mazda mzr-r motor. anyways there are a few out there mostly as a race car and i know for one if given the money and some time i would love to build one myself

Yeah, i know what u mean bout wanting to build one. As of now, my mechanical skill is rudimentary, I'm heading to the airforce soon, and i think i'm gonna take advantage of the free classes to learn a bit more. Seeing all the new technology they're coming up with, i'd love to get into auto designing, or at least be learned enough to do an experiment like a mid mounted rotary. We'll see. ty for the feedback.

The rotary engine fits into a Porsche 914 (mid engine) and is a somewhat common conversion.

I put one in the back of my 911 (rear engine). Runs great, no problems.

Isn't the RX-7 race car that runs in the JGTC from RE-Amemiya rear engine?

I know bout the professional racecars, I was talkin bout somethin like that porsche, that's awesome to hear bout. I wonder if anybody's ever taken an older lamborghini or ferrari with a bad engine and swapped it out with a rotary. I was just looking at how massive their engines were the other day and wondered why no one had tried a rotary yet, wondered if it was something to do with the mid engine rear wheel drive.

which model rotary do you have in your porsche?

A mid-engined rotary probably wouldn't actually be better for weight distribution. Keeping the cars weight as close to it's centre as possible is more beneficial than having the right ratio - with a mid engined setup (longitudinally at least) you have a gearbox hanging out past the rear axle which isn't good.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif Boosted12A did a Rotary 914 and his install looks sick https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/bigok.gif



I like the idea of a m/r rotary. The Ultima GTR out of the UK would be a perfect candidate for a 20B peripheral port. Most of them come with a big block 427 chevy, so I would imagine that the advantages of the rotary would shine through.



Erik

It's a heavily built '89 turbo. A few pics can be found on the "For Sale" forum.

Street port, two piece 3mm apex seals, Haltech.... About 350 horse at the crank. Bigger turbo and reprogram and the sky is the limit. It almost lifts the front tires off the ground. It is still accelerating hard at 130mph.

It handles better than when it had the original engine (rotary is lighter).

Also check out

http://web2.airmail.net/atl/Rotary.html

for a nice write up on a 914 NA conversion.

Nice, ty for all the imput guys, sounds like an exotic project for an ambitious person. Maybe one day when i have soem extra time and alot of money....

no

RX-7's ARE mid-engine car https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.gif

Mid engine applies to engines that lie bewteen the centerline of the front and rear wheels, just as RX-7's albeit in the front.

fwiw, I've driven rear mid-engined rotaries.

Star Mazda ring a bell https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif

JUST STUMBLED ON TO THIS TOPIC. IT IS A FAVOTIRE FANTASY OF MINE...I love rear drive mid engined cars.



There was a custom car shop doing a 13bt install in a beefed up Lotus Eoropa with a Porshe 903 rearend, as I recall. Monster performance numbers. The old Renault tranny wouldn't hold up to much more than a stock 12A I expect. I have thought about this as an interesting endurance car project as the 12a would keep it in e2 class and the low drag body could do well... I think https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683561.gif



The RX8 has near perfect 50/50 balance due to the rotary sitting far back of the front axle so some may see no need for the midship design. I can tell you from lotus experience keeping a mid engine cool can be a challenge, now add a rotary and there would be some homework needed.



Picture a GT40 replikit with a tranverse mounted 20b! Those V8 guys wouldn't know what to make of the odd exhaust sound! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683785.gif

Do you know someone selling a Europa? I would like to find one for my next project. Of course I would need to sell the Rotary 911 first. Perhaps a trade could be worked?

50:50 weight distribution isn't actually ideal, that's what the marketing guys tell you cause it makes their job easier. Under braking the weight shifts forwards so it's better to have it further back, and as long of the cog is low, having the engine further back helps traction on the back wheels under accelerating too. Something more like 60:40 is better but it still depends a lot on other things. But basically a mid engined rotary should be faster all things being equal.

Haven't looked for Europas in a long time, missed a couple good buys 4 years ago... but if I get another project before finishing the ones I have, my wife may suggest I start sleeping with it instead! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/blink.gif

By the time I have time and money for that project I may do the GT40 or Daytona Coupe thing, or a mutant RX8 Propane/Nitrous freak. https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/boink.gif



"50:50 weight distribution isn't actually ideal" I agree, it is just an easy term to describe the intent of design, but I am impressed by my RX8 GT suspension and balance, even stock! https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...1047683473.gif



neil



I think Chris Harvey is the author of a couple great referance books on Europas and what to beware of when shopping for one.

Finding a Europa is fairly easy of you are willing to travel.

http://lotus-europa.com/forsale.html

A great twin Cam just sold in California for around $10,000. I would have bought it in a second if my Porsche were already sold. Some reason the Porsche people seem to be afraid of my car because of the rotary and the rotary people seem to be afraid of the Porsche.



I really like the GT40 kits but they are a little too high for me. The Factory Five type 65 coupe and their GTM Supercar both look great.

I'd sooner get a replica: http://www.banks-europa.co.uk - you're not bastardising an original (despite it definitely being an improvement), you can get a spaceframe chassis and actually have something that can handle more power than a hairdryer, and it'd probably be around the same price considering what old english cars like that go for over there.

Depending on which Europa I get I may choose to leave it stock. I got to drive a stock Twin Cam and it had quite good performance for 120 horse. If I get a basket case to start with I would definately go more wild. I might stick with piston power since I have a good friend that works magic on heads.

One problem (?) with my car right now is that I can never really get into the throttle. It is simply too fast for spirited driving on the street. One Europa owner explained to me that he can drive his car at 80 percent and still not be in too much trouble with the law. My car at 80 percent is in hyper legal speeds. On the track near Demming NM the car is still accelerating hard at 130 in third gear. Then comes that sharp right hander. It really is true about Porsche's turning better under hard deceleration. But trust me, you don't really want to try it on the street.

The problem with the Banks Europas is price. The USED one for sale right now is asking $38,500. He claims $60,000 new. I think I could build one for less.

back a long time ago like (60's-70's) there was a 4 rotor mid engine corvette (CONCEPT CAR) sadly General motors decided that the money that would be needed to convert their facilities to manufacture rotaries was to much to spend on something that may or may not sell well to the general public. in a nut shell the rotary is a great motor but not largely popular. we are truly a rare breed .

Rx-7's are considered Mid-Front engined since the motor is behind the front axle...and so are S2000's...

probably not a true mid-engine (in the traditional sense) because it would be harder to replace the engine every year in the thing after engine failures.. Mid-engine with quick disconnects on everything... then you might be on to something cool there.........

hey im building a n/a 13b for my 914 right now. small world huh.

I forgot to mention when I first stumbled into this subject. I believe Mercedes Benz 1970'ish protype was a mid (behind driver) engined 4 rotor vehicle. Got to see it at Laguna Seca in '83. Sounded wicked! Have a picture of it. Couldn't get close enough to see the engine... they were somewhat secretive about it all. Pretty cool tho.

ONE OF OUR nORTHWEST GUYS showed us this link..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LV8c......ted&search=

Probably the best use of a Delorean yet!

Not only do they not want to make them but if they were to do so the engine would probly have even more overheating problems. Unless it's well vented or has similar scoops like the MR2 has. That would be neat though. BTW isn't the 787B mid engine lol.

I know of a 13B installed into a lotus elan a bell housing had to be fabricated.

I've just started building my mid-engine rotary.



Started designing it about 3 years ago and just started building the chassis a couple of weeks ago. It will be like an Ultima (only better of corse) when finished.



The great thing about putting the rotary in a sports/racing car is that it is so compact (when you get rid of all the crap) and with a dry sump kit can be mounted really low giving low COG.



Will be putting in a 13b to start but there is room for 20b.



If anyone is interested I will post some pics when it gets to an interesting stage.

hell yeah! post pics of whatever you have!

Hell yes we're interested.

I suddest you start a build thread/blog so we can monitor your progress too.

https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...#>/biggrin.gif

Yeah post dome pics for us!



I would like to see pictures of that 20b gt40 kit/replica



I was actually going to put a 13brew in the old MR-2 but decided otherwise. That would have been sweet though.



On a side note if anyone would like a 6-speed transaxle and doesn't like the idea of paying $12,000 for a ZF my old man imports custom modified Getrag 01E 6-speed transaxles from a race company is South Africa. they comfortably handle 400bhp. I have wanted to play around with one but about 85% of my disposable income goes into my FD. lol

ok, I'm half way through building the chassis atm; should be done in a week.



I'll post some pics then. Being half finished it doesn't look like much right now.



cheers

I started a bit of a build diary. There nothing to see rotary-wise at the moment, but you can see what its going to be strapped into!



NBR Beast Mk2

Just took a look at the page.

Looks good so far.

Please keep us updated. Are you familiar with this ground up design/build?

http://www.dpcars.net/