OK, I'm at my wits end here.



The car:

1988 10th Anniversary with a stock ported 20B being run by an E11v2. Walbro 255 pump, stock fuel system otherwise.



The problem:

The car has been running fine up until a couple of nights ago. I had barely any gas in the car so I put in 2 gallons from a gas tank with fresh gas in it. I started the car and drove to the gas station where I put in another 6 gallons and 6 oz of premix. I drove about 3 miles up the road and stopped to hang out with some people. About 2 hours later we left to go up the street about a mile. The car started with no problem. I shut down and went inside to eat. That took about an hour. I went to start the car again, but it acted like it was flooded. We didn't have tools with us, so we tried push starting and then towing the car to start it. ZERO luck.



The next day I pulled the plugs on the car to check them. They were BLACK with what looked like carbon all over them as if it had been running really, really rich for a while. No problem, I put new plugs in and the car fired up almost immediately. The problem is, it's got quite a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust now. It is super rich, to the point where if you stand behind the car for more than 2 or 3 seconds your eyes are burning and you're choking. Hmmm...



I double checked the timing. Perfect, and all plugs were firing. The car is sitting at a pretty solid 1000RPM idle. I've tried to pull more fuel out at idle but when I do it simply starts hunting up and down. I even attempted to use a zero throttle map. Still smoking like a train. I also made sure that ALL fuel corrections were turned off. The car is pulling just under 500mmHg at idle, which is about what it has always done.



I've tried playing with the car for two days now for a total of about 3 or 4 hours. Last night while working on it, it ran out of gas. How bad is your problem when you use 8 gallons in that span of time at IDLE????



Recap:

Car flooded out. Swapped in new plugs and started car. Super rich and smoking from excess fuel. No settings made a difference. Used up 8 gallons in about 4 hours of idling.



Can a fuel pressure regulator go bad in this way? I tried a different MAP sensor but it wouldn't even allow the car to start, so it may be bad. (The car is set up using a stock TII MAP sensor. The one I tried swapping in was a 318.



Ideas and/or solutions would be great!



Reese

What's your injection time in milliseconds, what size injectors and is it set up for sequential injection?

With the injectors and injector times I use I would expect to use about 5.75 gallons in those 4 hours on my car.



Mine idles at 2.4ms injection time with 750cc injectors, last night it idled at 1500 RPM. So this would be about the same injector open time per hour as a 3 rotor idling at 1000. Mine is not a stock port motor by any means though.

Verify AFR's with a wideband.

couple ideas. it could be the fpr, if it was bad it will run really wierd, prolly rich. sometimes there is fuel in the fpr vacuum line, thats a dead givaway.



also when we were messing with the e11 firmware updates it clicked a box for us that added 125% fuel correction, smokey smokey. it was in one of the menu's



i also saw an fd with a stuck open fuel injector, but it just ran rich on one rotor

Tyson, my injection time is approximately 2.6-2.8 ms. Stock (550) injectors. If I remember correctly, it IS set up for sequential injection.



rfreeman, I have the Haltech WBC but I won't have the ability to have the sensor installed until this weekend at best.



j9fd3s, banzai mentioned the FPR to me. That's going to suck since i can't just run to the junkyeard and grab a new 20B rail. I'll look for fuel in the line.



I turned off ALL the fuel correction maps on the main setup page and verified that by checking the data correction page, so I don't think that's it.



As for a stuck open injector, I suppose it COULD be that as well, but wouldn't it run fairly rough if that were the case? It's idling fairly well other than the smoke. I would think that if it had that much extra fuel it would be bogging it down. Hmm.



Hopefully, I can find someone who carries an adequate fuel pressure tester in stock. I checked Pep Boys at lunch and all they had was a low pressure tester for carbed cars. Assuming that it IS just the FPR, I'll probably just ge the stock one hacked off and run a barbed fitting to an aftermarket one.



Reese

running an aftermarket FPR witha gauge is cheap peice of mind.



Awesome tunning tool as well.

True, and I'll be picking one up as soon as I can; however, I'm trying to determine by tomorrow (hopefully) what the problem is since I'm supposed to take a trip to the mountains Saturday.



If I'm lucky, running some concentrated injector cleaner through will work. Otherwise, I'm missing yet another trip. Grrrr...



It was mentinoed in another thread I have going that it's possible the injectors are gummed up due to excessive and/or cheap premix. Would anyone care to validate that? I normally run the stuff in the silver bottles from Walmart but if I'm out I run whatever the gas station happens to have.

Actually,



Running premix will not "gum up" fuel injectors. In fact, it should help lube them.

You are on the right track with the FPR. If the diaphram ruptures you will get

overfueled. A stuck open injector will bleed off all the fuel pressure on shutoff.

I vote for either of these.



2turbos

OK, I went to get a fuel pressure tester today, but the only ones available were Schrader valve-type. I don't see any way to use that on our fuel rails so no pressure test was done.



I did try running some injector cleaner through, but nothing came of that.



I pulled the fuel rails off to generally check things out. The only abnormal thing I saw was on one of the primary injectors. I'm not really familiar with the way side feeds look since I'm a second gen guy, so I'm not sure if this is abnormal or not. When looking straight down at the top of the injectors you can see a metal ring that is the top of the body. Inside that ring is a piston . Sorry my terminology stinks here. Anyway, the inside of the ring is tapered a bit. Two of the inner 'pistons' are flush with the bottom of the tapered area. The third is sitting flush with the top of the ring itself.



I included a bad drawing to try to clarify a bit. My question is, "Does what I am seeing indicate that the odd injector (or the other two) is stuck partially open? Is there a way I can fix this myself?



Also, does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can check the pressure with or without a Schrader valve tester?



Reese

Well, here's an update of sorts...



I pulled both fuel rails off last night so I could put voltage to each injector to see if they were stuck. All 6 clicked when I put the battery to them so at least they aren't stuck. I cleaned them up to get rid of some of the crap that was built up on them and put them back in this evening.



I borrowed a fuel pressure tester from a friend of mine. At idle the fuel pressure is a steady 37 psi. No variation that I noted. This kind of puts me back at square one. I rechecked to verify that there is no form of fuel correction turned on.



What does this leave me with? It still idles fine. The timing light shows that all plugs are firing fine. It still smokes and reeks of fuel way more than normal. Oil and water levels are fine. The fuel pump and fuel filter are both fine. I'm pulling about 480 mmHg at idle. Pulling any more fuel out at idle still causes it to 'hunt'.



Sigh...I was hoping that I'd have an answer by now...



Reese

hmm wierd, 37psi is right at spec, i guess it could be a dirty injector still but it might be time to put a wideband on it and see whats going on. i wanna say it could be a failing coil, but theres 6 of em, so it seems unlikely

I have a friend coming over in a bit so maybe I can check to see if the secondaries are leaking. I was able to check the primaries by myself since they are clamped in place. I just turned on the fuel pressure and watched to see if they were leaking. I couldn't do the secondary rail that way since the pressure would have shot them across the yard. LOL.



I'm going to get a friend to weld the WB sensor into my downpipe this weekend so I can do that as well, Mike. I don't think it's a coil mainly because I'm getting a reading with the timing gun on each one.



How much do you remember about your Fuel Setup page, Mike? I know that it currently shows both Sequential and Staged checked. The box underneath the Divide By box (sorry I can't remember the name offhand) shows 100%.



More to come...



Reese

yeah i dont think its a coil either, theres 6 of em. it should be sequential and staged, i'm not sure about the divide by box, i'd have to look at one of the maps. did you do any firmware/software updating? or save any maps? sometimes things change when you save maps too.



yeah the secondaries are a pain, ive shot a few around myself!



did this start all at once? or was it gradual?



are all the temps and stuff normal? maybe one of the temp sensors took a dump?

Maybe one of your rotors has sprung a bit lower compression lately?

Ok, I MIGHT have come up with a cause for my problem. Bear with me and then critique.



I pulled the entire exhaust off the car yesterday from the turbo back. When I started the car there was NO smoke at all even with the cold start maps turned on.



Is it possible that when I was trying to pull start my car I shoved so much fuel through the system that it got into the packing in my presilencer and/or muffler and now it is trying to burn itself off? Also, the inside of the entire exhaust system is heavily coated in carbon/soot. We tried to clean some of it out with a synthetic scrub pad and carb cleaner but I think we just pissed it off. LOL.



Does this sound feasible? If so, I feel a bit foolish. Heh.



Reese

its possible. what kinda mpg are you getting? fill the tank, and go drive a couple miles on the freeway.

cancel what i was gonna say.



yea see if your car is actually using all that fuel that looks to be burning, if not then you might have just covered the exhaust in gas and ****. sorta weird, definitely not something id imagine happening.



and 4 hours idling at 1000 rpm id probably have to refill my 91 suburbans fuel tank https://www.nopistons.com/forums/pub...IR#>/smile.png, all 30 gallons.



kevin.

LOL, good point, kevin! I guess it just seemed rather excessive, but I was comparing it to my Ranger. I've had it sit idling while doing yard work before. Two different animals, though.



I'm definitely going to be able to go drive it around for a while tonight, so I'll let you guys know what happens.



Reese