Eating gas like it's candy...
10-19-2005, 10:00 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 148
OK, I'm at my wits end here.
The car:
1988 10th Anniversary with a stock ported 20B being run by an E11v2. Walbro 255 pump, stock fuel system otherwise.
The problem:
The car has been running fine up until a couple of nights ago. I had barely any gas in the car so I put in 2 gallons from a gas tank with fresh gas in it. I started the car and drove to the gas station where I put in another 6 gallons and 6 oz of premix. I drove about 3 miles up the road and stopped to hang out with some people. About 2 hours later we left to go up the street about a mile. The car started with no problem. I shut down and went inside to eat. That took about an hour. I went to start the car again, but it acted like it was flooded. We didn't have tools with us, so we tried push starting and then towing the car to start it. ZERO luck.
The next day I pulled the plugs on the car to check them. They were BLACK with what looked like carbon all over them as if it had been running really, really rich for a while. No problem, I put new plugs in and the car fired up almost immediately. The problem is, it's got quite a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust now. It is super rich, to the point where if you stand behind the car for more than 2 or 3 seconds your eyes are burning and you're choking. Hmmm...
I double checked the timing. Perfect, and all plugs were firing. The car is sitting at a pretty solid 1000RPM idle. I've tried to pull more fuel out at idle but when I do it simply starts hunting up and down. I even attempted to use a zero throttle map. Still smoking like a train. I also made sure that ALL fuel corrections were turned off. The car is pulling just under 500mmHg at idle, which is about what it has always done.
I've tried playing with the car for two days now for a total of about 3 or 4 hours. Last night while working on it, it ran out of gas. How bad is your problem when you use 8 gallons in that span of time at IDLE????
Recap:
Car flooded out. Swapped in new plugs and started car. Super rich and smoking from excess fuel. No settings made a difference. Used up 8 gallons in about 4 hours of idling.
Can a fuel pressure regulator go bad in this way? I tried a different MAP sensor but it wouldn't even allow the car to start, so it may be bad. (The car is set up using a stock TII MAP sensor. The one I tried swapping in was a 318.
Ideas and/or solutions would be great!
Reese
The car:
1988 10th Anniversary with a stock ported 20B being run by an E11v2. Walbro 255 pump, stock fuel system otherwise.
The problem:
The car has been running fine up until a couple of nights ago. I had barely any gas in the car so I put in 2 gallons from a gas tank with fresh gas in it. I started the car and drove to the gas station where I put in another 6 gallons and 6 oz of premix. I drove about 3 miles up the road and stopped to hang out with some people. About 2 hours later we left to go up the street about a mile. The car started with no problem. I shut down and went inside to eat. That took about an hour. I went to start the car again, but it acted like it was flooded. We didn't have tools with us, so we tried push starting and then towing the car to start it. ZERO luck.
The next day I pulled the plugs on the car to check them. They were BLACK with what looked like carbon all over them as if it had been running really, really rich for a while. No problem, I put new plugs in and the car fired up almost immediately. The problem is, it's got quite a bit of smoke coming from the exhaust now. It is super rich, to the point where if you stand behind the car for more than 2 or 3 seconds your eyes are burning and you're choking. Hmmm...
I double checked the timing. Perfect, and all plugs were firing. The car is sitting at a pretty solid 1000RPM idle. I've tried to pull more fuel out at idle but when I do it simply starts hunting up and down. I even attempted to use a zero throttle map. Still smoking like a train. I also made sure that ALL fuel corrections were turned off. The car is pulling just under 500mmHg at idle, which is about what it has always done.
I've tried playing with the car for two days now for a total of about 3 or 4 hours. Last night while working on it, it ran out of gas. How bad is your problem when you use 8 gallons in that span of time at IDLE????
Recap:
Car flooded out. Swapped in new plugs and started car. Super rich and smoking from excess fuel. No settings made a difference. Used up 8 gallons in about 4 hours of idling.
Can a fuel pressure regulator go bad in this way? I tried a different MAP sensor but it wouldn't even allow the car to start, so it may be bad. (The car is set up using a stock TII MAP sensor. The one I tried swapping in was a 318.
Ideas and/or solutions would be great!
Reese
10-19-2005, 12:35 PM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2,871
With the injectors and injector times I use I would expect to use about 5.75 gallons in those 4 hours on my car.
Mine idles at 2.4ms injection time with 750cc injectors, last night it idled at 1500 RPM. So this would be about the same injector open time per hour as a 3 rotor idling at 1000. Mine is not a stock port motor by any means though.
Mine idles at 2.4ms injection time with 750cc injectors, last night it idled at 1500 RPM. So this would be about the same injector open time per hour as a 3 rotor idling at 1000. Mine is not a stock port motor by any means though.
10-19-2005, 01:30 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: California
Posts: 22,465
couple ideas. it could be the fpr, if it was bad it will run really wierd, prolly rich. sometimes there is fuel in the fpr vacuum line, thats a dead givaway.
also when we were messing with the e11 firmware updates it clicked a box for us that added 125% fuel correction, smokey smokey. it was in one of the menu's
i also saw an fd with a stuck open fuel injector, but it just ran rich on one rotor
also when we were messing with the e11 firmware updates it clicked a box for us that added 125% fuel correction, smokey smokey. it was in one of the menu's
i also saw an fd with a stuck open fuel injector, but it just ran rich on one rotor
10-19-2005, 02:23 PM
#6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 148
Tyson, my injection time is approximately 2.6-2.8 ms. Stock (550) injectors. If I remember correctly, it IS set up for sequential injection.
rfreeman, I have the Haltech WBC but I won't have the ability to have the sensor installed until this weekend at best.
j9fd3s, banzai mentioned the FPR to me. That's going to suck since i can't just run to the junkyeard and grab a new 20B rail. I'll look for fuel in the line.
I turned off ALL the fuel correction maps on the main setup page and verified that by checking the data correction page, so I don't think that's it.
As for a stuck open injector, I suppose it COULD be that as well, but wouldn't it run fairly rough if that were the case? It's idling fairly well other than the smoke. I would think that if it had that much extra fuel it would be bogging it down. Hmm.
Hopefully, I can find someone who carries an adequate fuel pressure tester in stock. I checked Pep Boys at lunch and all they had was a low pressure tester for carbed cars. Assuming that it IS just the FPR, I'll probably just ge the stock one hacked off and run a barbed fitting to an aftermarket one.
Reese
rfreeman, I have the Haltech WBC but I won't have the ability to have the sensor installed until this weekend at best.
j9fd3s, banzai mentioned the FPR to me. That's going to suck since i can't just run to the junkyeard and grab a new 20B rail. I'll look for fuel in the line.
I turned off ALL the fuel correction maps on the main setup page and verified that by checking the data correction page, so I don't think that's it.
As for a stuck open injector, I suppose it COULD be that as well, but wouldn't it run fairly rough if that were the case? It's idling fairly well other than the smoke. I would think that if it had that much extra fuel it would be bogging it down. Hmm.
Hopefully, I can find someone who carries an adequate fuel pressure tester in stock. I checked Pep Boys at lunch and all they had was a low pressure tester for carbed cars. Assuming that it IS just the FPR, I'll probably just ge the stock one hacked off and run a barbed fitting to an aftermarket one.
Reese
10-19-2005, 04:52 PM
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 148
True, and I'll be picking one up as soon as I can; however, I'm trying to determine by tomorrow (hopefully) what the problem is since I'm supposed to take a trip to the mountains Saturday.
If I'm lucky, running some concentrated injector cleaner through will work. Otherwise, I'm missing yet another trip. Grrrr...
It was mentinoed in another thread I have going that it's possible the injectors are gummed up due to excessive and/or cheap premix. Would anyone care to validate that? I normally run the stuff in the silver bottles from Walmart but if I'm out I run whatever the gas station happens to have.
If I'm lucky, running some concentrated injector cleaner through will work. Otherwise, I'm missing yet another trip. Grrrr...
It was mentinoed in another thread I have going that it's possible the injectors are gummed up due to excessive and/or cheap premix. Would anyone care to validate that? I normally run the stuff in the silver bottles from Walmart but if I'm out I run whatever the gas station happens to have.
10-19-2005, 07:23 PM
#9
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by nota944' post='770771' date='Oct 19 2005, 01:52 PM
True, and I'll be picking one up as soon as I can; however, I'm trying to determine by tomorrow (hopefully) what the problem is since I'm supposed to take a trip to the mountains Saturday.
If I'm lucky, running some concentrated injector cleaner through will work. Otherwise, I'm missing yet another trip. Grrrr...
It was mentinoed in another thread I have going that it's possible the injectors are gummed up due to excessive and/or cheap premix. Would anyone care to validate that? I normally run the stuff in the silver bottles from Walmart but if I'm out I run whatever the gas station happens to have.
Actually,
Running premix will not "gum up" fuel injectors. In fact, it should help lube them.
You are on the right track with the FPR. If the diaphram ruptures you will get
overfueled. A stuck open injector will bleed off all the fuel pressure on shutoff.
I vote for either of these.
2turbos
10-19-2005, 10:29 PM
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 148
OK, I went to get a fuel pressure tester today, but the only ones available were Schrader valve-type. I don't see any way to use that on our fuel rails so no pressure test was done.
I did try running some injector cleaner through, but nothing came of that.
I pulled the fuel rails off to generally check things out. The only abnormal thing I saw was on one of the primary injectors. I'm not really familiar with the way side feeds look since I'm a second gen guy, so I'm not sure if this is abnormal or not. When looking straight down at the top of the injectors you can see a metal ring that is the top of the body. Inside that ring is a piston . Sorry my terminology stinks here. Anyway, the inside of the ring is tapered a bit. Two of the inner 'pistons' are flush with the bottom of the tapered area. The third is sitting flush with the top of the ring itself.
I included a bad drawing to try to clarify a bit. My question is, "Does what I am seeing indicate that the odd injector (or the other two) is stuck partially open? Is there a way I can fix this myself?
Also, does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can check the pressure with or without a Schrader valve tester?
Reese
I did try running some injector cleaner through, but nothing came of that.
I pulled the fuel rails off to generally check things out. The only abnormal thing I saw was on one of the primary injectors. I'm not really familiar with the way side feeds look since I'm a second gen guy, so I'm not sure if this is abnormal or not. When looking straight down at the top of the injectors you can see a metal ring that is the top of the body. Inside that ring is a piston . Sorry my terminology stinks here. Anyway, the inside of the ring is tapered a bit. Two of the inner 'pistons' are flush with the bottom of the tapered area. The third is sitting flush with the top of the ring itself.
I included a bad drawing to try to clarify a bit. My question is, "Does what I am seeing indicate that the odd injector (or the other two) is stuck partially open? Is there a way I can fix this myself?
Also, does anyone have a suggestion as to how I can check the pressure with or without a Schrader valve tester?
Reese